What do you think about girl trips?

Questions and Comments
#81

The issue is not with men having requirements.

The issue is with having requirements for the wrong reasons.

If the requirement is for her to stay home and not travel because the man is afraid that she will cheat, then there is no logical reason behind this requirement. It is completely based on projected fear (a wrong reason).

The man is forbidding her to travel because of his own fears of what she might eventually do and that he would never know whether she ever did so.
According to him, she must stay home, not because South America is dangerous and he wants to protect her (a logical reason), but because he does not trust her with having control over he own sexual choices and the strength of their relationship (fear based reasons).

This overly strict requirement in this case is only there because there is a trust issue in the first place. If there is no trust, then the relationship is not that deep in the first place. No real trust also means there is no real love.

If a man is afraid that his woman will cheat on him, then this will never be a healthy relationship, independent of how strict or loose the requirements and standards are. This is because the relationship is build on mistrust in the first place. This mistrust then compensates with overly strict irrational requirements and standards.

In this scenario, the man is asking her to give up her life-long dream of travelling so that he can feel secure in the knowing that she never cheated while traveling.

A relationship that is not built on trust, but on control, cannot not operate as a healthy relationship.

Men (and women) who have their requirments and standards based on fear and control, will never experience a really deep and fullfilling relationship, because the very enforcement of those fear based requirements will always be stronger than the level of trust.

No trust = no true intimacy = superficial relationship

Insecure men seek control over their women through such rigid requirements, but in the end it does not matter how strict or how loose the requirement is.
No trust means no trust. Period.
Therefore, if the requirement is created for the wrong reasons, in this case in order to cope for the man’s own fears and lack of trust, then these requirements are exactly that which will kill the relationship in the first place.

These wrong requirements are not being made to amplify the trust in the relationship, but to compensate for the lack of trust.

Relationship requirements created for the wrong reasons will kill a relationship before it even started.

Relationships that operate on these types of requirements for the wrong reasons, are purely transactional.
…which most traditional relationships were in the past for sure and these relationships worked for society as a whole, but the people inside those relationships weren’t happy and fullfilled most of the time. Relationships built on such compensational requirements are artificial constructs and these constructs are not based on trust but on enforcing standards to “keep everyone within their assigned role”.

The issue is not with men having requirements and standards.
The issue is with having requirements for the wrong reasons.
These requirements and standards shall never be coping mechanisms for one’s own insecurities.

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#82

So you’re saying that his distrust in his woman’s morals, personal ethics, values and character… is a biological urge and therefore there’s nothing wrong with it?

You’re not addressing the trust in external factors over an individual’s characteristics.

It doesn’t matter how you slice it, if you don’t trust your partner - your relationship is going to be toxic. That’s what people are saying.

I like what you’re saying though, I’m just not getting the connections.

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#83

Imagine a hypothetical situation where a man demands constant validation and praise in a relationship, insisting that their woman must frequently tell them how wonderful they are. By your perspective, this is “frame, self-esteem, confidence and courage” because he’s telling her exactly what type of woman he wants, rather than a red flag for insecurity and the need to fill in an emotional void for low self-esteem.

Like, how are you differentiating?

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#84

Let me say something about trust and fear since that seems to be the two main points being debated here.

Relationships aren’t built on trust. That is a wrong notion which has pervaded the current zeitgeist.

It doesn’t matter how much trust the woman has for her man but if he doesn’t protect, provide for and lead her, she won’t stay.

In the same manner, it doesn’t matter how much trust he has for her but if she isn’t loyal, friendly and ready to follow him, he doesn’t have to stay.

But of course in this day and age, there is no problem with women having standards but oh no the man has standards so please call him insecure and needy and other buzzwords.

Nope. Relationships aren’t built on trust. It is built on the role one plays.

If the man plays the role of a confident leader, he is chosen by women. If a woman plays the role of a friendly follower, she is chosen by men.

It is as simple as that but we have complicated it with unnecessary factors like trust, communication and other words.

Trust like respect, let me tell you, is earned over time if the roles are played well by both men and women. How can trust be given if it isn’t earned?

On the matter of fear. Sometimes fear is justified. Fear of infidelity and assault are carried by men and women respectively because they lead to children that are unwanted.

For men the infidelity of the women leads to children that are not his to raise and for women assault leads to children that she didn’t want to have with the man.

These are uncomfortable realities that men and women have to live in and these fears are okay. Which is why men take extra precautions to protect their women and women take extra precaution to be safe.

Lets not think for a second that these biological fears can be swept under the rug just because we have been brainwashed into believing that how men think is the wrong way of thinking and that what women say is always correct.

A man’s instinct to ensure paternity is justified and if the woman wants to go, sure she is free to do so. But he is also free to make the decision to let her go if her behavior isn’t according to his standards. Women have left men for far less and even they have the right to do so.

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#85

Have said enough on the matter.

@RagnarLothbrok you are a free man to do as you please. Read all these posts and choose the way you want to live.

Zero Point pushes reality through you and your desires and wants are justified. All the best to whichever way you choose, brother :pray:

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#86

I just have to add one more thing because as soon as I finished putting this matter from my mind, the following thought came to me:

Despite many of us disagreeing with each other, we all want what is best for @RagnarLothbrok (and by extension anyone who asks for our advice).

Even if the advice is different and contradicting, this thought that we want what is best for each other and we are trying our best to help each other, is a very comforting thought. Will admit that it gives me the fuzzies cause it shows that all these gentlemen (and lady) in this thread genuinely care else we wouldn’t have bothered to give our perspective and be challenged because of it. We would also be indifferent if we didn’t care.

Even if putting forth our beliefs has an inherent selfish nature to it, it still leads to thinking and personal development.

Hence am appreciative of all of you :pray:

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#87
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#88

this reminds of me this

a trip story

TLDR - Before my vacation i [F24] asked my boyfriend [M25] to open our relationship temporarily. Now hes regularly having sex with some girl in our apartment and im heartbroken

Im pretty fucking upset rigth now , Im going to do my best to explain everything thats happened.

Ive had an extended holiday (3 months) planned with my best friend (Tory) for years. We have always talked about it and my boyfriend (Daniel) knew we were going to do it. She finally finished college this December and we put our plan into action.

Another friend (Michelle) went on a similar trip years ago. She and her friend both had longterm boyfriends at the time, and they both ended up cheating on the trip. A while later their friendship fell apart, and they both revealed each others infidelity. It got ugly. Michelle and her boyfriend broke up, her (ex)friend stayed with her boyfriend but from the sounds of it their relationship was severely damaged.

At first i thought they were absolutely horrible for doing it, but after talking to her i could see their side of things - months of no sexual contact/release, being in a party atmosphere, of course there would be temptation. She’s young, attractive and gets lots of male attention. The encounter was purely sexual, she was drunk, and they used protection. The next day the boy was out of her life completely and that was it. I vehementely disagreed with doing all this behind her boyfriends back though.

Talking with Michelle about a month ago, she asked what im going to do about Daniel. I honestly hadnt thought about it like that, i felt like i could easily go 3 months without having sex. And id never want to betray Daniel’s trust. But Michelle made a good case for ‘opening’ our relationship while i was away - she said (paraphrasing): “Of course you love Daniel. But traveling is about experiencing new things, and that includes sex. Youll say it wont happen now, but you just have to trust me that once youre their youll feel different. Daniel is going to wonder either way if youre fucking other guys on your trip. Just be upfront with him and see what he says.”

And so that night i talked to him about it. I explained that i wasnt going to be looking to fuck every guy i see that im attracted to, and that my love for him was as strong as ever, but i also wanted to be able act freely and party like other girls my age. It was more contingency if anything - i dont plan on fucking other guys, but if it happens it happens. A nigth of partying half the world away with people ill never see again shouldnt ruin what we had here. Id insist on using protection. And of course he would have the same opportunity as me, he would be able to freely see girls if he chose to. He wasnt happy, but said he understood. He said “Youve tied my hands. If i tell you i forbid it, ill still be worried if youre being true to your word. By expressing that this is what you want, theres nothing i can do to stop you”.

Daniels a bit of a homebody - he goes out with his friends on occassion, but most nights he spends in our apartment playing video games or watching netflix. Given his lifestyle i wasnt overly worried hed be hooking up with all these random girls.

Me and Tory left on February 17. Its been eye-opening and a ton of fun. But its also been stressful. We havent done any partying, we talked to some guys one night but nothing came of it. Tonight i checked my email at an internet cafe and there was a message from Kay, a sweet old lady who lives above us in our apartment complex.

“I have debated for days whether to send this to you and potentially ruin your vacation. But you deserve to know the truth. Daniel has been seeing another woman since you left. There is no doubt that he is seeing her, she has come over most nights and I have heard them being intimate. You deserve so much better. I’m so sorry.”

I thought i could handle this open relationship arrangement. I cant. This message shattered my heart into a million pieces. This isnt what i intended at all, i wanted the freedom to act in the moment. He is taking this as a free pass to regularly fuck some girl. And i have a feeling i know exactly who it is, a girl from his work who was always overly flirty with him.

I regret ever taking Michelles advice and opening my stupid mouth. I dont want him to fuck other girls, i dont want to fuck other guys. I want this slut out of my apartment NOW!!! I am a fucking wreck and need other womens opinions. Tory has been so unhelpful, basically telling me to grow up and that i got what i asked for. No shit?! People arent allowed to change their minds or regret their decisions?!

How do I go about contacting him and expressing that this needs to stop NOW without coming across crazy and hypocritical? And let him know that i will be 100% faithful on my trip? I dont even know how i am going to look at him when i get home. I am beyond hurt, this feels so wrong and so sick.

I am going to bed now to try and get some sleep, i will check and respond to all comments tomorrow morning. Thank you :frowning:

EDIT: guys, seriously stop it. I know i fucked up, i brought it all on myself. Kicking me while im down isnt helping. Im not asking for your opinion on my stupid selfish decision, im asking the best way to approach this and fix it.

Tory says i should email him saying “what i said before about opening our relationship was a mistake. I havent slept with anyone here and i dont want to. Youre my parter and i dont want to compromise what we have. Please be faithful as I will be to you. I love you.” Simply dont tell him about Kay’s email or that i know there’s another woman. Thoughts?

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#89

Honestly shit like this is why I haven’t had a real one-on-one relationship in like 12 years. Just have a harem and don’t worry about it. Jk sort of. First gf cheated on me with her ex, and she was my first everything. That experience snapped me out of relationship bullshit real quick /: this is why I think I need Heartsong maybe… anyway, yeah I don’t think girl trips is good. Then again, maybe I’m not experienced in enough actual good relationships to be sure. The only times girls I was seeing were good and loyal was when I was seeing other girls (which wasn’t cheating cuz we technically weren’t “going out”), but eh that was years ago.

But yeah I guess it really depends on the specific woman and how she sees the situation. If she’s indifferent about it and is only doing it because her friends really want her to go, fine. If she’s super excited about it…hmm, I wouldn’t feel good about that. Still not very good either way imo. But I’ll scroll through the replies and see if there’s good arguments for it.

Edit: okay so I actually read the post (lol) and maaan, I f*ckin feel you. Literally reminds me of how I felt in situations like that. By the sound of it, she may have been excited about it for years since it’s like a “tradition”, so simple timing may be the enemy in this situation.

And I understand you not trusting her here, like you’re not sure if it’s just in your head or if there really is good reason not to trust. Anyway yeah man, sh*t like this is why I resent relationships and haven’t really done one in forever lol.

The thing is, just remember that there’s multitudes of beautiful women out there and if this relationship goes south (no pun intended), it’s not the end of the world. You were able to get her, you can definitely get another one. Not to sound like I’m vilifying your gf or anything but you know what I mean. Thinking back on it, the good relationships I had were the times when I genuinely felt and knew I could always get another girl. Like when you really feel that way, you can’t lose. And yeah she’s only your girlfriend, not your wife (THAT would suck). Be wary of one-itis and don’t make her too big of a deal in your life (or women in general). Relationships should be a side mission.

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#90

Dr_who is right!

If she’s with you than you take the decision together. Don’t worry, it is healthy to be jealous.

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#91

She already made the decision long before we met

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#92

Yeah, so she’s been looking forward to this for years, so the trip is like an inevitability for her, she’s gonna friggin do it. I agree with Malkuth; consider the worst case scenario (only once) and what you would do in that situation, that way you set up a safety net for yourself. Then wish her luck and have fun, stay in contact but not too much, etc. and assume from there that it’ll all go fine and treat it that way :slight_smile:. I mean, it could totally go smoothly and not be a big deal at all and you’ll look back at this thread 3 months from now and laugh.

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#93

The worst case scenario is that she cheats and break my heart.

What would i do with that? I would break up with her obviously.

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#94

And ending the relationship yourself beforehand doesn’t break your heart? There is only one solution left for you that might not break your heart.

#95

If I were her and my boyfriend wouldn’t let me go on my dream trip, I’d break up with him and go anyway. I’d feel I deserve much better and he did me a favor showing me his true colors. Trust is super important in a relationship and if we don’t have that, what’s the point anyway in continuing together.

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#96

:joy: right. Well I guess you could ask the question: what do you consider cheating? Flirting? Making out? Just sex? Etc. but yeah it’s hard for me to know what to think since I don’t know her or how the relationship is or anything. These days I just wouldn’t put myself in a situation like this. Also, I would ask myself why I’m in the relationship in the first place. You trying to get married? Or do you basically just want a friend who you can reliably f*ck and be sexually intimate with? Cuz if that’s the case… Lol yeah relationships are just stupid/broken imo. Then again I’m particularly jaded so.

#97

Someone going on a holiday to “find themselves” means that they are there to go discover their own character and see what their boundaries are.

So why would u blindly trust someone who is out to test their own boundaries? Someone who is out to build their own character, likely based on whatever short term feeling they will feel during the trip, and consequently, whatever actions they take due to the feeling? On a trip that will likely have no repucussions if she does anything as long as her friends keep it a secret? (Tbf why would you blindly trust anyone)?

Did I mean u can’t trust them? No. But blindly trusting her in this situation is foolish.

So you asking this questions is extremely logical.

For people who say "break up with her let her do what she wants during the trip and make up with her after she’s back, that way you don’t get cheated on’- it’s likely not just about getting cheated on.

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#98

I know this sentiment is populair in alpha communities but seriously wtf lol. Me, and most people i know see more cases of guys wanting relationships and girls just wanting friends with benefits or whatever than the other way around (although that also def does happen).

Also going on a girls trip being an indicator of disinterest is very presumptuous. I also have plans for a big trip that has been my dream for the longest time. Me going on this trip doesnt mean im disinterested in my girlfriend, im very happy with her, but these type of trips are amazing and i would feel like id miss out on so much if i couldnt see as much of the world as possible.
The partner coming with on the trip for long periods of time just isnt always a possibility for various reasons. That sucks and it makes a trip much harder, but thats where compromises come in.

Relationships are with two persons though. I dont disagree with what you say here, but also if you are serious about a relationship you should be willing to compromise.

If youre gonna be with someone longterm there are always gonna be things you like and dislike. Things youre more or less confortable with, thats just how it goes when youre longterm. While i agree that she should adapt to your needs as much as possible, the same is true the other way around. Its all about compromises, not forcing her to do things with ultimatums.

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#99

The problem is that i read everything and i agree with both sides.

So i don’t know what to do.

No matter what i decide, I won’t be at peace with any decision.

#100

One thing that this story shows is that this is not an uncommon situation. I won’t go into detail, but I experienced a similar situation myself around 10 years ago.

IMO, it doesn’t matter how much you justify “opening” a relationship that’s previously been closed with lofty thoughts about not getting jealous and the “benefits”. Both biologically and psychologically, its not a “normal” situation for a man and a woman to be in together.

Due to the long history within our dominant cultural paradigm of monogamy, and the various reasons for that, we have a set of conditioned responses to this kind of behavior. It can certainly be “managed”, and I’ve known a number of people in the US where this has been popular for some decades that have found open relationships to work for them.

But even within those communities it is still a juggling thing. And you’re dealing with the consequences of human relationships which (for better or worse) often end up defining our own perception of self worth. I’m glad this is such a diverse community; the variety of responses gives @RagnarLothbrok plenty of ways to frame his situation and think on how to manage it.

Not wanting to make this a long post, I’ll get to why I decided to respond: to share a slightly different frame.

The current dominant cultural paradigm (and I’m not talking about monogamy) is toxic, and I don’t think I’m surprising anyone by saying that. By way of example, the reason Wilhelm Reich was censored and thrown in prison wasn’t for selling medical devices but for revealing the way that society binds and controls us by manipulating our relationship with sexuality, among other things. His writing “The Mass Psychology of Fascism” is still just as relevant today.

(previous paragraphs deleted to make this shorter) I’ll just multiply a few examples of how our current societal paradigm attempts to confuse us. The commodification of sex in advertising. The weaponization of the alphabet. TV shows promoting participation in prostitution, TV shows dedicated to people who are addicted to sex, or have problematic sexual relationships. Normalizing the idea that we should be hyper-focused on sexual relationships rather than quality human relationships based on mutual enrichment. Multiplication of the idea of free-choice to the point where the open-relationship paradigm and fking around is the default, accepted one and the desire to raise a normal family becomes ever less normal.

My point is, it’s not unusual to be completely screwed up in regards to sex and not even know it; hell its even possible to think your own emotions in regards to the situation are somehow “wrong”.

Rather than offer some cheesy line of advice based on my perspective, my thought from what you’ve said here is: if you’re not already running it, Khan Black (particularly ST1) could be invaluable in sorting out a solution. Others would probably suggest Wanted Black or other attraction subs, but I’m saying the purely aligning with this energy within yourself, which is after all originally intended to be used for procreation, pleasant though it is. I would hazard a guess that this would remove a lot of the confusion around the matter for you and get to the heart of the matter.

Good luck brother.

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