Is SUCKING ALL available value the basis of all human interaction?

The Emperor's Lounge
#1

I learnt early on (from a course about seduction) that giving value is the best way of having uplifting relationships. So, i trained myself to give value at all times.

But now after running emperor: the will to power for a while, I see that taking value is the basis of all human interaction. And I see that I’ve been getting taken advantage of by most people who just suck value (and i keep providing it (providing good vibes for free wid charm is one of my main ways of providing value)).

Here is what I see in all human interactions:
Guy A takes value (say he commands his subordinate: guy B to do something for him but he doesn’t do it tactfully or wid charm, he just commands rudely to another).
Guy B does what he is asked properly but he also does it while taking value (he replies rudely to the command).
Guy A berates guy B.
Guy B fires back.

But the work has been done properly and the interaction ends.

Here is what I thought should happen:
Guy A should command guy B wid persuassion tact to do the work.
The Guy B should do the work at the best of his capacity and show that he tried his best for the job.
Guy A should acknowledge guy B’s effort.
The interaction ends wid both giving value and everyone happy.

So, my question is to reiterate: Is sucking as much value as possible in any interaction by both parties in the conversation natural order of things and i’ve been living in lala land studying persuassion tactics when i should just be commanding people wid confidence to do my bidding?

#2

The first scenario wouldn’t end there. It’d create animosity between the 2 parties that would influence further interactions.

The second scenario (win-win) would be ideal, but we live in a messy world where we may have bad days and our interactions are not as good as they should be.

Just do your best when you can and apologise when you mess up.

#3

No it’s not the natural order. It’s an aspect of humanity. This is why boundaries are important. In that first scenario person B should have stated they don’t appreciate being treated that way and demand some respect. Obviously you can’t always do that in jobs because of the power dynamics, your financial situation, strategically what’s best, etc. Which sucks, nobody should be put in that kind of a position.

Person A is what you could call an abuser. Literally abuses the power dynamics knowing they can treat person B like crap to get things done knowing they are “higher up”. Please don’t aspire to be someone like that, does it work? Unfortunately it does, but you hurt other people. It’s a systemic issue that needs to be gutted from society.

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#4

1718602682132

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#5

How to know when to transition from Q3 to Q4?

#6

The thing is there are consequences to being a tyrant. It can work well…. But not for long if executed poorly. If you only take, you will have people create a revolution against you and unless you’re really really smart to stay hidden or flee, you’ll get fucked by the public and your peers eventually. Or… unless you’re a tyrant who provides value to his people or to his Allies - unless they need you or want something that you can give them, without value given and only feeding off others aggressively, you will die. The world will smother you. You can’t take take take and bite and spit on the world without being put down for it. Value if given in certain ways, can generate for you a pretty good position of power. If done properly. Tyrany with no value given is sure failure in the long run. Your morals your situation.

If it comes to only one person to person interactions then yeah if someone else is really submissive and incompetent then you can treat them like suckers and take anything they have left and they most likely will never muster enough power to give it back to you. And it probably happens all the time. In families, jobs, romantical relationships and so on. There are pros and cons to it such as not ans pleasant relationships with such person that you anre actively mistreating. You could also miss out on some value they could have provided to you in the future if they were to like being around you. If they felt respected and appreciated. Maybe they will close off. Thats why it’s imo better to use this on people who are selfish and take and stand in your way instead. If you use an enemy tactic use it on enemy not an ally. Someone who only takes and damages your plans and life. How and if you use it is up to you. What you care about. Who you’re interacting with, what are your priorities and values? Who are you? It’s a general principle so you can’t get a “yes this is good” or “no don’t use that ever” answer because nobody knows you. Nobody knows what you’re trying to achieve and all the details around it. Your morals and situation.

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#7

@oloy you should read 48 laws of power to understand this issue more.

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#8

Consider all of nature.

Can you think of anything at all that has only one basis?

Can you think of even one example of a process that always happens in the exact same way every single time?

The closer a phenomenon gets to that, the more likely it is to die off.

Continue your experiments in observation, learning, and lifestyle. But try not to imprison yourself in narrow concepts of Natural Order. For any genuine principle you discover, there will usually be multiple exceptions.

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#9

I literally cannot think of any other way than this that is sustainable:

Can you tell me the alternatives?

#10

In 48 Laws of Power, Never upstage the boss, you should always make your boss look good and never try to appear better than them in front of others.

Have you heard of someone getting fired because they were too good? The truth is that they get fired because their making their boss look bad. You are expected to do well, meet goals, and succeed, that’s why you get hired for the job.

For both guy A and B, never mine that.

Remember people don’t have to like you. You just got to like yourself. Others liking you is just a bonus.

When you don’t see your worth, you may undervalue yourself, accepting situations or treatment that don’t match your real value. You may not reveal your true self until you feel emotionally safe with someone. Once you’re confident in your abilities and know your own worth, what others say won’t affect you.

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#11

Sucking Value allready has some implications it feels like…sucking sounds like somethign a mosquito deoes…it happens without consent. It comes from a place of lack and not from a place of abundance.

IMHO its very important to go in life from transactional relationships to empowering relationships. To go from transactions that are trading equal values to transactions that are creating value to both people. To have relationships where what one party gives is something this party likes to give. So to come back to you example: If after the conversation both parties feel better than before and feel like they have grown and are more empowered…not only an exchange has happened but also additional energy is created.

And I understand that this is hard nowadays. Where most people work something that they have to work and not something that comes from their heart.

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#12

There are a lot of assumptions already implicit in the way you’re framing the question. They tell about where you are right now–in your beliefs, emotions, and perceptions.

Just have a look around at how different people are communicating. See whether or not it always conforms to the picture painted in your original post.

One book that seems like it might be helpful is The Undervalued Self by Elaine Aron. Check out her discussion of Linking vs. Ranking in relationships.

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#13

It confirms exactly to what I said.
But maybe since the only constant in all these conversations is me observing, maybe my vibe is making people act this way?? Or maybe I’m doing a bad job at explaining this??

#14

Why do you use “sucking” instead of “getting” or “acquiring”?
Like @MechaShaman said, it has a negative implication.

Is there a deeper, more subtle reason behind it?

#15

As @MechaShaman said, it’s forceful and without regard for the other person’s needs.

#16

If I seek to acquire value while still respecting the other person’s needs. How would you classify it?
Is it not the basis of human interaction too?

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#17

In my view, it’s not sustainable. If U try to acquire value while still respecting the other person’s need and they don’t care about Ur needs, U lose, they win.

So U start to take without care of the other’s wishes as well, now it’s sustainable.

The thing I forgot to say is that both parties are genuinely ok wid taking value in this way. I don’t sense any malice behind it.

#18

Malkuth is trying to explain to you that youre looking at things too black and white. Youre looking for ONE SIMPLE YER OR NO answer. But the world is complex and you will have scenarios where something works and another where that same thing doesnt work. The idea is that no truth is the ultimate truth. Everything has an exception and if you think too narrow - if you want to always see and live by only one narrow way of seeing things, you could be limiting your toolkit. I dont know what book he recommended is, but if he recoomended it to you, it might be worth going over.

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#19

That’s just another word for respect.

If I don’t respect the other person, I’d have taken more than what the other party is “genuinely ok” with.

What I think is sustainable, is both parties getting values & growing while respecting each other.
Otherwise I’ll pillage your village and steal your women. That’s beyond what anyone would be “genuinely ok” with. That’s what lack of respect can escalate to. It CAN’T be sustainable by definition.

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#20

I know these dynamics very well…Sounds like a wrong people problem.
My solution for these issues is to go to different people. People that do care about my needs.
The answer to toxicity is not more toxicity…is to go to a place where there is no toxicity.

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