The Achiever vs The Surrenderer

Questions and Comments
#1

Hey guys,

There has been something on my mind lately, that I wanted to express here and discuss with you all. Lately, I’ve been working at my new job, which is the most difficult job I have done so far. It’s out of my comfort zone, I’m doing things I’m not good at and it’s at an extremely high pace with a heavy workload. While on the other hand, I manifested this job, my amazing apartment, and my girlfriend with meditation and letting go of things. The reason I’m telling you this is because I figured out the 2 sides of me that keep flipping.

On the Left side (The left brain so to speak), it’s the achiever:

  • David Goggins
  • Wes Watson
  • Jordan Peterson

The one that says that you have to suffer to grow in life to become somebody different. Everything is a test, a journey to achieve your utmost potential. That you have to work very hard to get something, otherwise it will never work. This is the side that makes me want to go out of my way, work 50+ hours a week, and just keep grinding and grinding. It feels stressed, painful and happy at the same time if you know what I mean.

On the right side (right brain), it’s the Surrenderer:

  • Joe Dispenza
  • Sadhguru

This is the side that says that suffering always is a choice and it’s never necessary. Those are the guys that say as long as you have your thought and emotion in line with what you want to create, you don’t have to go anywhere to get it. They are always peaceful and in a blissful state, never trying to chase or trying to achieve/get anything, because that way it will take much longer. Like Dispenza says “Trying to get matter to matter takes time”, what is exactly the point that the other group is making with “Working hard and suffering”.

How do you look at the conflicting advices and way’s of thinking? Because to me, both sides are a part of me and they keep fighting each other

Looking forward to your response!

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#2

Who said you can not climb and Great mountain and fall in love with climb?

Suffering is unnecessary. It is a choice.

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#3

The answer is usually Both.

In this case, “choose something you love and you won’t have to work a day in your life.”

Or in other words, you work hard because it is just fun to do so since your choice is in alignment with who you are.

Of course, sometimes we are not in an ideal situation at the moment. In which case we work towards the ideal while slowly but surely moving away from where we currently are.

EDIT: I think a good example of this is the subliminal-action parts of our journey. The subliminal part is the Surrender and the action part is the Achiever.

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#4

That’s the point. When we face adversity, we grow. So that means suffering is necessary to grow in the eyes of the brave. In suffering, you learn you’re greatest lessons. See what I mean by how conflicting these 2 philosophies are?

I get what you mean, but that’s not the point I’m trying to make. What I mean is, the one group say’s we have to suffer and chase to get the things that we want. While the other group say’s you never have to chase anything and don’t suffer to get someting.

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#5

Suffering is in the mind but we are human and sometimes it does get the better of us.

I think we learn over time to not give too much importance to the feeling of suffering. And in that way, reduce it.

I have yet to achieve that level of detachment but I do get close to it when am having a consistent meditation practice.

Since Joe Dispenza and Sadhguru are meditators, I think they have figured this out and have also learnt how to manifest things into their life by raising their vibration.

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#6

By experiencing, thinking, and deciding for oneself. Only you can ultimately decide.

#7

I see it as each part having a need, but that need can get a little out of control. All about balance. People who have a desire to bliss out will be easily controlled, that’s how a lot of cults work. Conversely people who grind their life away and don’t question that grind can trap themselves in their own prison.

This is why I don’t care too much towards looking to others for examples of how to live. It’s very constraining. Those two parts of you come from aspects of yourself that have very distinct needs which you should honor. They probably fight each other because you shift back and forth between extremes. In fact you might want to take a look here and see if it is relatable.

There are a lot of ways to live life. The most liberating thing I did was to just focus on what I wanted and to stop looking at others lives.

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#8

Jesus was not suffering when he was crucified by the Romans on the cross.

His outside circumstances, many would argue, were those of “suffering”… but he was a Master of his inner-world, and even while being crucified held unconditional love, and forgiveness for those who behaved so sinfully against him.

The suffering was never his, those who suffered were the romans who held immense hatred and anger towards a man they feared and despised because he spoke truth, and that truth endangered their corrupt regime of power and condescend towards the people they ruled.

It is good to have a philosophy that is beneficial and leads to success.

But none ever reached his destination without choosing a path that leads there. He walks in circles and circles and ends where he started…

So you see these people you mentioned have different philosophies because they are each on a different scale of Spiritual understanding and growth.

@Solomon it is how you perceive and handle the adversity that makes your internal experience of it.

If you look at it negatively, yes, it will cause suffering.

But if your choice is to see it as a challenge to overcome, a means of measuring your capabilities, you will become empowered and motivated to handle the adversity, and it will become all the more exciting.

All of it depends on your state of mind.

Life is experienced from within, and when the outside circumstances stop governing our internal world we have truly become sovereign and free.

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#9

Paging @Malkuth and @AlexanderGraves

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#10

The first point I would make is “Congratulations, @Solomon!”.

This kind of dialectical processing is the exact kind of manifestation I often notice as the mind is responding to the subliminal.

Remember the formula:

Thesis-Antithesis - Synthesis

The contrast that you’ve pointed out is a conflict.

In the same sense that the positive charge and the negative charge in an atom are also a conflict.

And look how amazingly it works out when the necessary work happens to successfully integrate that conflict.

We get nice little fringe benefits like: Existence itself.

I’m being glib. But it’s intended in brotherhood.

I’m working through my own dialectical polarizations as well (shout-out to @Fractal_Explorer).

and as the saying goes: It’s a feature not a bug.

This is what growth feels like. You’re doing it right.

And gradually, as your capacity expands to accommodate both extremes of the conflict, you will find that it feels less like a conflict and more like an energy source.

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#11

One mantra or meditation that I have found very helpful is “allow it to be easy”.

Let me be clear: this is aspirational.

It’s a state or condition that we are seeking or reminding ourselves to seek.

and it’s not exactly what it might look like.

We’re seeking ease in the midst of challenge.

We are seeking it here:

image

In other words:

“Can I, without breaking stance, allow this to be easy?” “How easy can I allow this to be?”

The ease we’re seeking is not lassitude, but rather release. And it’s the optimal ratio of release that still allows successful effort. We’re talking wu wei.

So, I would echo (though with somewhat muted bravado) what Amor said above:

As for this second part,

Sure. That’s true. But suffering and not suffering are choices in the same way that finding a cure for cancer is a choice.

After we make that choice to find the cure, we may still need to work for another century before we actually get to it.

Frankly, though, I feel that there is a certain rightness and comfort in simply having made the choice at all. And if we get there in this lifetime or not? Well, those are just details. :wink:

(These are my opinions, of course.)

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#12

That’s simply because some things work for some, and others work for others.

There is NO one-size-fits-all solution for happiness for all humans. Rest assured, we would’ve already found it.

Simple example. There is this “create your villain” idea by a famous man which’ name shall not be named. It’s the idea of creating a better version of you that is ALWAYS ahead of you.
Result: You keep chasing that, thus you put in more action on a daily basis.

However, for me, this resulted in hating my every day life because I was always chasing the ideal life I didn’t have yet.
For others this works SUPERBLY. They get everything they want.

I am much more content with living in the present moment and enjoying it (while, of course, giving intentions to life (which subs, for example)) even if I don’t have everything (yet).

If the suffering works for you, by all means, go with it.
Surrendering to life works for me, so I chose that.

In short: Choose what works for you, discard the rest.

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#13

Hahahaha this my preferable trap now . You shared only one dimension of this trap

Let’s add the others so the picture get clearer

Effort (body , mental , relationships )

Effortlessness ( body , mental , relationships)

Every One of these people you mentioned already doing effort but using his innate innate innate innate innate strength ability (effortlessness) , but it appears to you that he is doing smth hard :exploding_head::sweat_smile::sweat_smile: . And every one of the people you mentioned use effort in aspects you may don’t see in his social media IMAGE IMAGE (this image is created purposefully)

Forget these social media IMAGEs and Start noticing the normal people around you you will learn a lot a bout the dance between effort and effortlessness . And the importance of LEVERAGING y INNATE STRENGTHS .

These people are just IMAGEs .

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#14

Can’t take advice from that man at personal level :weary::weary: his belief in suffering led him exactly to the same reality he was preaching , resulting in being addicted to certain medications while his wife was curing from cancer ., This man himself can’t stand the suffering and the medication he take led him to around 3years in Russia healing his addiction to that medication :triumph::triumph:

These are just IMAGES and Law of attraction work on process !

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#15

As much as I admire Peterson for what he did to men in general (in getting their life in order) preaching suffering is necessary for many is - as you say - just law of attraction at work.

I got the same lesson with my relationship. Glad I learned from my mistake.

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#16

In life you’ll find a lot of people might have wisdom or knowledge but be flawed themselves in some way. It’s important not to throw it all out just because of their character. Truth be told these days I’m more apprehensive about people who are the whole package, it makes me wonder “what skeletons do they have in their closet?”

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#17

I am not suggesting that his character has any flaws we all are ,

But I am pinpointing to smth important for a sub community

Which is " belief creates reality " that’s the whole point of this discussion " whatever belief you choose and expemplify in you word and deeds will manifest in your reality "

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#18

Must have misread your post. I guess my point was even though someone is in alignment with suffering doesn’t mean they are “wrong”. I’m sure everyone can attest to running the subs on here changing beliefs and running into roadblocks. “belief creates reality” is a simple concept, but not at all straightforward in execution when it comes to the human mind. It sounds like Peterson was working through it in the only way he knew how, which is valuable information to know as well.

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#19

@Lion @Houdini @Fractal_Explorer @Malkuth @AlexanderGraves @sid

I want to sincerely thank you all for your wise and thoughtful input. It’s amazing to see how in-depth you guys went and that’s what I love so much about this forum. So thank you!

The reason I used those names, was to give a picture of the conflicting thoughts and feelings I have inside me, not that I agree with all of them. More to give some names to the sides of me.

Yes, I have the same thing. Solitude always gives me the best insights and advice. Still, I think it’s wise to use the knowledge of others to construct your own life, but leave out what you don’t find necessary. The part about Polarization… That was amazing! I just ordered his book “No bad parts” to dive deeper into this topic. Because out of all the advice, that really hit the nail. Thank you

I agree, personally, I’m more on the spiritual part of this. That suffering is a choice, I’ve seen this many times in my life. But sometimes when I truly suffer and my mind goes to different places. It still gives some sort of peace and clarity. Maybe that part has to develop even more into true consciousness.

Right on brother!

Thank you :wink:

Funny, you said the same thing that one spiritual leader once told me (She did my human design reading). That I have a very strong masculine side (Visionaring, communicating, inventing) and a strong feminine side (Being close to the body, the earth, and touch). She said, “They are conflicting, but can be very complimentary to each other when you’ve found a way to honor them both”. I forgot about that, but because of what you wrote, it came back to me. The whole post was beautiful!

I’ve heard of wu wei countless times from Alan watts. Maybe that’s indeed the balance that’s needed. To still “thrive” to do something beautiful, but to do it with ease and don’t overcomplicate what you’re doing.

My humble opinion is that we have multiple lives to achieve ultimate spiritual development. That’s why some people are really motivated by money, while others already understand it’s not the goal in life. Since I’ve become older I started to understand the money motivators and see there is nothing wrong with that, it’s just a different scale of spiritual understanding and growth like @Houdini said.

Amen to that, I should look back at the things that work the most for me and try to find a balance in both of them.

I have the same, but (well polarization apparently) it manifests that I don’t want to strive for anything anymore because I feel so whole, why would I even go do something? But we still live in this 3-dimensional world in which I need food, shelter, etc. That’s why I always go from one extreme to the other. Hopefully, I’ll find a balance in the future with this, because I love both sides of me.

Couldn’t agree more. I have the same with Goggins and all of them. Do you think you need suffering? Well, be prepared, because it will give you as much suffering as possible. But some pain and adversity that you create on you’re own, can be good for your spiritual and normal growth. Just not in the way they explain it. But yeah, they helped so many people out of depression, that you can’t deny the impact both men made.

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#20

We do not create with action we create with our thoughts. Even people who preach action and achieve success, I guarantee they implemented their actions from a state of being where they KNEW their actions would fulfill their desire. However, they also KNEW that hard work was “required” so that’s exactly what they got…we get what we KNOW. not what we believe. belief vs knowing…knowing takes no effort. belief takes unimaginable effort…hmmm sort of like believing action is how we create-that also takes no effort but it gives you the experience of HAVING to expend effort to achieve your desires. but if that’s what you KNOW that’s what you will get.

The problem with creating with our thoughts is that thoughts work contrary to how we assume. Paradoxically you control your negative thoughts by observing them without judgment and NOT by forcing them away. SURRENDER is the magic key: surrender to negative thoughts and they dissolve because negativity itself is just resistance to the present moment which can include bad thoughts…so its not about actions vs surrender. It’s about being present, staying in a state of surrender and KNOWING you have what you desire. From that state of being your actions will not only be super effective but they will be the RIGHT actions because your subconscious is in a state of fulfilled desire.

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