PayPal is horrible for businesses. My opinion anyway. Sides with customers even when presented with absolute proof of wrongdoing and horsesassery.
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@SaintSovereign Why do you want the new wealth titles to perform as well as Wanted Black? Outside of the obvious reasons. What’s changed?
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He wants to “MAX” ZPv2 for wealth titles, which they’re aren’t any…
It’s all on the road toward ZPv3
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And it’ll make interesting QTKS of course
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I was thinking the same thing. I was also curious how the scripting has changed
I guess RICH will be the first one to be rewritten. 
since rewritten and update take time
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I think mogul will be the first wealth title to get a rewritten script but RICH is another good guess
They might also do something like emperor or house of Medici
I think it will depend on what people are running
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Writing in to agree on removing the refund policy.
A free Wealth and Seduction title will be enough (along with Love Bomb for Humanity) to satisfy those who want to “see before they believe”. Maybe an alpha title too for completeness.
If only one other free title should be made, then a Mogul Lite, Ascended Mogul Lite or Genesis Lite will do.
Personally, if it was me, I would just make Mogul free.
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My personal opinion on lite titles:
If I’m a user of another sub company, why would I try a lite title from another company when I still can use a full-fledged title from the company that I’m already with? “lite” implies that it will not give me the full experience, why choose that over what I already have?
The reason why I got into SC is because of LBFH, a full program that directly shows the full capability of SC’s subs. there’s no holding back with it.
I can agree with making mogul free to an extent, but it’s a sub that requires you to take action. the effect is less obvious for new users. maybe ascension / genesis would be better if you guys decide to make a title free.
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By this line of thinking, maybe we’re already good; because LBFH is still free now.
But having an additional light free program that covers another area might cast the net a little wider in terms of potentially interested users.
And, of course, if they decide that ‘lite’ is not enough and they still want more, there’s a very easy remedy for that.
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While I understand that Madara is abusing this policy, removing the refund policy may cause more harm than good. You would think a refund policy for digital products is a bad thing but you’d actually be (surprisingly) wrong. An explicit refund policy when used in selling products, even digital products leads to way more sales. The downside may be an increase in refunds but you would be surprised to know that this doesn’t actually happen all that much.
A refund policy works like insurance. Most people will never cash it out, hence why insurance companies are so profitable. Yet people still buy them for that feeling of reassurance that they’ll be okay. Same with a refund policy, they’ll feel comforted to know they can always back out if it doesn’t work even if 99% of them never do. And of those who abuse it, the owner can always blacklist them.
The problem here is more of avoiding a payment ban by evading the watchful eyes of the payment processor. That’s not really a problem on the side of the company, it’s the intermediary handling the payments.
Also we’re dealing with subliminals, considered an unusual technology by many. Not having a refund policy will raise eyebrows from those who are skeptical and on the fence, like I was a few years ago.
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@Beowulf - I do appreciate your nuanced and objective view on the matter but the thing is that even a single malicious individual is enough to take time away from Saint and Fire. Instead of having a relationship with productive members of the forum and putting time into developing new tech and titles, they have to go after these no-gooders which is also stressful.
As for those who are skeptical and those on the fence, the free titles will help with that. There will be no need to keep black lists and track users if there isn’t any refund policy and just as people take responsibility for subliminal use, they should also take responsibility for the purchase of said subliminals especially after they have tried out the free ones.
If they are still skeptical, they can research on the forum for those who tried the paid subliminals and decide on whether to take the leap themselves.
This cat and mouse game with people who cry placebo and who seek to blame SubClub for their problems is plain ridiculous as it is. Add to that people trying to get refunds for 35 USD and Saint having to waste more than hundreds of dollars of time to check and cross-check these instances is taking away more productive and restful use of his and Fire’s time.
Similar to the Customs not having refunds, the main store should also start doing so. It will eliminate a lot of future problems similar to the ones M caused. And my guess is that such people will only increase and try to use loop holes in PayPal and other payment services to take advantage of SC. Or at the bare minimum, waste a lot of time.
That’s my (non-refundable) 2 cents on the matter lol.
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I agree with this wholeheartedly.
But let’s think about this for a second.
A bad actor comes in, wrecks the place, abuses the payment system, and constantly evades punishment. The proposed solution is for the company to:-
- Release free titles to the public
- Remove the conditional guarantee of a refund.
Releasing free titles cost money, time, and manpower for the company. So the company has to put in even more resources to handle the problem at a net loss for the company. Not only that but if you release the free titles improperly you could cause market cannibalization, leading to people that would otherwise buy one of your products to only use the free one. This further leads to a loss of revenue.
Now on top of that, the company then removes the refund policy on all of their products. I get that some consumers are smart and do their research, look into the forum, and test out the free products that are available. But we also have to think about the consumer psychology here. I come to the website. I’m offered a free title (or a few) and all the other titles are non-refundable. My brain as a consumer, who is unfamiliar with your product and lofty claims as a subliminal producer will either consciously or unconsciously think something is off. Why would I buy from your company with no refund policy if the other does? I feel more secure with my wallet there. Maybe you’re scamming me. Or you’re not confident in your product.
Then boom, your rival company got a new customer and continued loyalty because every product their customers purchase is refundable (safety). I am dealt with a double whammy of having to release free titles and revoking the refund policy that increases sales. Now my offer seems inferior to my competitors and I lose more time + effort to solidify myself in the marketplace.
I think we’re skirting around the solution here. Which is figuring out how to handle payments without someone abusing the system. That’s all we need to do. I think we’re jumping the gun here a little bit. Let’s say we solved the problem by just doing that. Then we don’t have to deal with all of these potential downsides in response to one bad actor, who would probably feel ecstatic that they caused the company to shoot themselves in the foot in response. We may potentially have future problems with the change but we’ll cross the bridge when we get there.
That’s my 2 cents on the matter 
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Agreed. Now think everybody. Refund policy for something that costs 35$ whilst there’s so many testimonials that “guarantee” that these excellent products work? SC should focus more on positive reviews, feedback, testimonials as the “warranty”, instead of wasting their time and money on something that is obsolete, right now. It could work well in the past, where the brand was new but right now? With so much positive feedback?
Edit:
I’ve just checked a competitor’s website who charges around 10x more. No warranty whatsoever. And they use the same tech they did when I used their programs four years ago.
Edit:
I sent a ticket four days ago:
Would it be doable to add links to the sales pages that lead to the respective discussion topics on the forums, highlighting posts with the most relevant feedback on the subliminal results [on the given sub]?
That should work as the warranty really nicely, gentlemen. 
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This isn’t a loss since most consumers are encouraged by free trials to make purchases if they like the free ones.
Free titles actually inspire confidence in users since it implies that the company is confident enough to give away free titles and hence have no need to resort to a refund policy to get back the customer’s money.
And hence once again, try the free titles and get inspired enough to try the paid ones for more growth in various other domains.
This is a valid point but one should also consider that one needs to take action to get back one’s money and also deal with the risk of not getting a refund. Safety is hence more in free titles than refunds.
If that was the case, there wouldn’t be problems with PayPal. But there is.
But yes, if refunds are to be continued, this would be a good solution. Along with the point Saint made about keeping older users with good purchase history with Subliminal Club keeping their PayPal option.
Will admit you make some good points but I see more trouble with refunds compared to no-refunds.
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That’s a fair point and touches on another topic not fully discussed: Time and effort. Free titles would cost, but would only do so once and would open a nice way to advertise. The 30 day policy is a bit fraud prone and will always be a bit of a hassle. Customers who enjoyed the free titles and got results will IMO not go for the competition.
Absolutely. But e. g. killing Paypal for new customers will probably reduce revenue too.
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You’re definitely right.
Which is why I mentioned improperly released titles. The company basically has to weigh whether releasing a new, free title is worth it to get more paying customers compared to the downsides of the title bringing in a lot of revenue to the company if it wasn’t free. This to me feels like a tricky act and as a solution to the problem at hand carries some unnecessary risk.
I’m quite open to free titles as a marketing tool, just that it seems like we’re using the wrong tool here.
This is hard to agree. A refund policy is different from a testimonial, which is different from a lead magnet. You can have amazing testimonials and a great lead magnet (free titles) but you’re neutering yourself of one of the components of a great offer, the refund policy. One doesn’t exactly replace the other. So it doesn’t make sense to me to cut off something that will bring in more sales IMO.
True, though it’s better than not having a refund policy at all. Just the existence of it is enough to improve sales.
Even if fraud exists, I still think it pales in comparison to the revenue brought in by the refund policy. I’m not sure how the company is going to solve it but that’s what I believe.
Good point. Still needs to be carefully considered though.
I think handling the payment processing issue is all we should care about for now. If it gets settled, then all of the proposed solutions are entirely unnecessary and potentially counterproductive.
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Bruh, what programs are you running these days? And what are you working on?
Whatever it is, I’m hearing its beneficial effects on you.
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If it was my business, I would setup a proper process to deal with the refunds. One that only escalates it to me when the customer service agent doesn’t know how to deal with it.
In my business we have 4 people dealing with customers. None of them are me.
There’s a difference in customers. The ones that are willing to pull out their credit cards are a lot more profitable kind compared to the ones that don’t.
You still need to deal with the freebie seekers. Being a distraction on the forum has nothing to do with payments. It depends on their personality.
Removing the Risk Reversal component (refunds) might have a huge effect on conversion rate. Depending on the scale of the business we might be talking about millions of dollars.
We are making assumptions without the correct data.
Edit: wrote this on phone while eating. Had to take some shortcuts.
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I really like @Beowulf’s argument, so I’m renouncing my initial stance. From a business side of things, it’s much better to offer a refund policy than to not.
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