Have you ever gotten deep, long lasting changes from using a sub for less than 6 months?

Questions and Comments
#19

EDIT: Sorry for the wall of text.

It would IMO makes sense to break down the term results a bit by the kinds of sub and the way they work. Say, you use Paragon and it helps you to heal something, it achieved its goal, but “longlasting effect” wouldn’t be the right way to describe it.

So a differentiation could look something like this:

  • Healing: Physical (e. g. Paragon)

  • Momentary Effect. (RotNW)

  • Healing, Dissolving (Khan 1, Khan Black 1, Lovebomb, Sanguine)

  • Developmental: Personality Building, Spiritual (Emperor, Khan Black 2, 3, RICH)

  • Developmental: Skills (UWX, Vibes, Paragon: Sleep, RICH)

  • Developmental: Physical Shifting. (Shifting should be its own thing: Legacy of the Spartan)

There is of course overlap.

It makes sense to exclude subs for Momentary Effects and Physical Healing from this discussion, as they aren’t really meant to be used long term. (Chronic illness is a special topic, but still should be excluded, as we don’t know how it would develop without subs.)

The results of the new Lovebomb (listened to it roughly a year ago) after brutal recon still hold up and are absolutely profound regarding, selflove, boundaries, emotional selfdetermination. Listened to it for 2-3 cycles IIRC.

IMO subs dissolving inner obstacles are by their very nature the easiest to achieve lasting results with. Once you really let your baggage go, it’s, well, gone and it stays gone.

The Unfolding (RoM, RoS) works in a way similar though constructive. Insights I gained during listening to RoM are still there. It is a “you can’t unsee what you’ve seen” kinda thing.

Related to this one could view the pure Skill Developmental subs. Results IME take longer to develop as you actually learn skills, but they stay. If you’ve learned to write you can write.

With the NSE everything kinda becomes a skill, I suspect the results get more permanent with SC subs over time. Very much looking forward to ZPU.

Physical Shifting would merit its own discussion. Too different and too complex to be discussed here.

That leaves us with the Personal Development subs.

The permanency of results for Personal Development subs really depend IME on a couple of points:

  • How close are you to the archetype already. I listened to new Daredevil since its release, got quickly insync and the result feel pretty permanent. Then again: How do you really measure this? I’ve always been a storyteller and loved to make people laugh and keep them entertained.

  • How many archetypical (personal developmental) subs are you listening to at once. Something like Khan and WANTED might need quite some time to be harmonized and there probably will still be a tension between the approaches. This tension, I suspect, works against permanency. We want to convince the subconscious to accept a new normal, within us and in our personal world. The more conherent the new normal is, the more willing the subconscious will be to accept it.

  • Can you integrate the new normal everywhere in your life? It has to become routine, your new personal world to actually become permanent.

I suspect, especially with developmental subs, that we often don’t see the results that are already there. If you had to jump over your shadow (is that an english idiom too?) to stand your ground and defend your ideas and now it’s your second nature after using Limitless, it will look exactly the same to the outside world and a degree yourself even though it is a big leap.

As we want to move many of the cornerstones of our personality there is a strong subconscious tendency so snap back to the old normal. As many of these cornerstones are defined/influenced by the survival instinct (like key fears, trauma etc.) it would make sense to work on them first for permanency later.

The one thing that gave me the biggest developmental push regarding subs, consistency and permanency was the healing of Lovebomb and a couple of other related healing subs. The emotional baggage IME keeps one firmly knotted to the old normal, reinforcing it over and over, makes movement so much harder and binds an awful lot of energy. Throwing it out first would be a good idea. There are several examples on here of members working on healing with Khan 1 and Dragon Rising for 1 year+ before getting incredibly quick results afterwards.

(Disclaimer: When I write about sub use, I normally mean listened to it within a custom.)

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#20

100%!!
I was saying the other day in another discussion that this kind of results not only are ever lasting, but they can also be achieved pretty quickly.

Other results needs more time because theres a lot of pre requirements for that result to really happen, those pre requirements are also results that builds up into something greater.

Theres also results that people will never achieve, but the fun is in your journey to try and get there.

To me the issue seems to be located somewhere else though.

#1 Its not easy for most people to measure whats happening under the hood (unconsciously) so we tend to focus on the outside manifestations, which occurs afterwards.

#2 We tend to judge the effectiveness of a process, comparing it with our expectations of how/when/where that thing is suppose to happen.

#3 Ultimately, many people dont know how to correctly stablish good objectives.

Im not pointing any fingers here, Ive done all these things myself more often than I would like too… Just making a generic observation.

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#21

Yeah. Same. The first 3 years on here I frenetically sub hopped. I got results, sure, but there also was a lot of chasing fantasies, daydreaming and shiny new object syndrome.

But maybe this phase is just part of the subliminal process.

It could’ve been a much quicker journey. I mean… today: Find your sub to clear out the baggage (be it by reading the copy, using Genesis or just using AoH), go for it for 6-12 months, when you are ready pick a foundational sub for your main goals: Mogul, Primal, UA etc. give it another 6-12 months.

After that you are probably ready to choose your own adventure.

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#22

To me those are the fastest acting subs, when running DRR, I struggled for a week or 2, then suddenly the issue dissolved and it was no longer an issue… a week later the same process repeated with another issue.

Sometimes deeply rooted trauma is multilayered and will take longer to fully resolve, but once a layer is gone, its gone. The trick is going all the way until you are free.

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#24

That touches on a fascinating point. Extrapolating a bit it could well mean, that the feeling of nothing changing and everything being just completely normal on a sub can hint at a profound integration, accepting it as (new) normal.

I suspect, that could be, especially with archetypes one is already close aligned to, often cause of the misinterpretation, that nothing is happening on a sub. (Not relating to your experience, just a general thought.)

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#25

At the end of the day, ‘Normalcy’ and the sense of things being ‘as usual’ are merely perceptions like any other perception.

Subjectively generated sensations that may or may not reflect what is present.

It can be helpful to look to other metrics as well.

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#26

Maybe new/old “normal” is not the best shorthand?

Looking at the identity and personality development subs continuous shift in perception of oneself and the personal world are IMO a key factor, with listening to subs, taking action, journaling, changes in environment and introspection giving the subconscious “points of proof” for the new personal reality.

Which other metrics would you suggest?

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#27

Yes, indeed. I am actually agreeing with your excellent point about new/old normal.

That is fascinating to me too, and quite profound.

I was just pointing out that this very phenomenon reveals the protean, malleable nature of the sense of normalcy. Especially when it comes to Identity.

‘Normal’ can shift so much to accommodate new developments in the person and in their world.

For some, the fact that they feel normal despite having grown and changed significantly will be a kind of camouflaging factor that may obscure the changes they’ve experienced. It could cause them to ‘shift the goalposts’ and assert that ‘nothing much has changed’ since ‘I feel pretty much the same as I did before’.

I’ve seen this happen a lot when people are questioning their results.

In that case, it’s good to have some objective metrics as well.

(In short:A person ‘feel weak’ and goes to the gym to work out and also plays a strength-promoting subliminal. 6 weeks later they still ‘feel weak’. But looking at their actual workout reveals that they’ve gone from bench-pressing 125 pounds to benching 215 pounds.)

It might be helpful, sometimes, to consider Identity and Feelings as comprising their own (meaningful and important) domain. Not, in other words, as ‘evidence’ of objective change, but more as a sign of a form of mental wellbeing (for example, Confidence and Self-Acceptance).

A person may be more interested in ‘Feeling Strong’ than in increasing that bench-press amount. And I think there are potentially valid reasons for having that as a goal.

We live simultaneously in an individual world and an interpersonal world. Sometimes the interpersonal social world is governed more by communication and ideas than by physical, objective phenomena. In the social world of interpersonal communication, the dog’s ‘bark’ often matters more than the dog’s ‘bite’.

In the social realm, developments and outcomes are influenced by the confidence of the person’s communication as much as by the realities underlying that communication. The Identity of strength may hold more weight (pun intended) than one’s actual strength.

Not sure if I’ve expressed this clearly.

But, in short, I agree with you. The point just inspired me to make a related observation.

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#28

Yep, I only ran EOG once, one month per stage and it’s changed my life and one year later I feel complete changed from it. I do keep EOG4 in a custom though which will be a staple for the year.

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#29

Absolutely, thank you!

I absolutely agree, and for many subs it’s easy to measure. But how do you measure results for behavioural and identity subs like Daredevil, Emperor or Khan objectively?

Another problem is the comprehensiveness and difference in conscious and subconscious focus, looking in the wrong places fo results.

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#30

I think that for those programs, I would choose goals, projects, activities, or areas that I have been working on. Places where I’ve either been blocked and challenged or in which I’ve been unable thus far to initiate a whole lot of movement.

This kind of thing can, I think, be tailored to the specific lifestyle and situational contexts of the individual listener.

How am I approaching the initiation of difficult conversations? (Emperor and Khan)

How am I approaching situations that require the setting and enforcement of personal boundaries? (Emperor and Khan)

How am I doing with articulating personal intentions and desires? (Emperor, Khan, Daredevil)

How am I doing with guiding a plan from concept to real-world execution? (Emperor)

Those are just a few generic starting points, but I think that anybody can look through their current lifestyle and behavior patterns and identify salient and relevant areas and situations that arise on a regular basis.

This is similar to the process of personal goal-setting with a Cognitive-Behavioral Therapist or Behavioral Therapist. It takes thought and effort, but it’s not that difficult to create a personally-relevant set of steps that transform an abstract goal or aspiration into a set of tangible, real-world steps. It’s worth the effort.

And equally important is to hold those real-world steps loosely and flexibly. Refining, updating, and pivoting as needed.

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#31

I like that! This could develop into something like a personal lackmus test. Writing down typically difficult situation (not the big ones, rather small but recurring stuff as potential indicators for progress) that should be addressed by the sub. This would probably have a bit of a priming effect for the subconscious and would give clear points of reference.

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#32

You know, I think that this might actually be the direction in which things are moving with Zero Point Union.

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#33

A short trip takes a shorter time.

A long trip takes a longer time.

But both short trips and long trips can be life-changing.

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#34

Deep changes from short cycles?

ABSOLUTELY.

Because in those cases, they led to instant and profound realizations that completely changed the trajectory of my life.

A few loops of RoS and I realized my purpose, where I was aligned to it, where I wasn’t, and how to pursue it.

There are other examples.

The effects of RoS have faded but the impact it has on my life has not

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À la limite jouissance - KHAN
#35

That quote says it well.

À la limite jouissance - KHAN
#36

To be praised by @Malkuth is high praise indeed

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#37

Thanks, @Jouissance.

:slightly_smiling_face:

#38

I think that what I’m going to say is what many of you mentioned already when talking about “healing” subs, just phrasing it differently.

The most profound and lifelong internal shifts I’ve experienced came from my realizing critical subjective limitations, and their root, that had used to hinder my growth due to the emotional burden they carried. Upon those realizations, the emotional burden got lifted and the shifts took place.

It didn’t matter how long I ran the sub at all as those profound internal shifts “came to me” upon experiencing ordinary life situations and the sub was “just” the catalyst as it focused my intelligence on “the right elements” of the experience.

For example, I listened to Genesis for two weeks only, yet, somewhere in the middle of the run, I got an insight that made me realize my habitual self-sabotage, “self-crucifying”, stemming from a feeling that I don’t deserve good things. All that happened when I was eating strawberry ice cream, and I realized how much I like strawberries while in the past I would keep telling myself I didn’t like them just because everybody in my family loved them and I though they deserved them whilst I was the one who didn’t, leaving eating them to my siblings.

Since then I’ve enjoyed eating strawberries. However, the fact I do enjoy eating them is only an indication of the profound change that is that I deserve good things. There’s the self-sabotage no more.

I could list tons of shifts of this kind, tons of subjective limitations I overcame upon my realizing the emotional burden they carried and their root. I don’t even remember most of them but what I do remember are those uplifting moments of the realizations that lift me up back to… heaven.

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The heaven of self-alignment, where the gap between “me” and “who I am meant to be” is no more, despite “all the evil that happened”.

:snowflake:

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#39

I have, in fact, experienced deep changes in less than 6 months.

How deep?

Balls deep.

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