From my view this whole “debacle” about the lack of social vibe on CC speaks to a need from the community.
A “social emperor”. I like Stark, but it doesn’t speak to me.
My experience is that OG emperor led to being anti-social (or withdrawing socially). CC feels very much like OG Emperor. Much more than new emperor. At least on the social aspect.
HoM on the other hand, felt like an integration of EWTP (PCC) and Daredevil together with wealth stuff. The social aspect on HoM for me often came from seeing how people, and systems/organisations would work better for my ideas/execution if I became friendly with them. It wasn’t a desire to be social, but utilizing social aspects for goal-attainment. This “social mastery” also came into effect when I was around friends family etc.
This new CC in my experience is more purebred Emperor and wealth. Which isn’t bad, but it lost some of the aspect that made me enjoy HoM. - Combined with it being an “too advanced” title.
I don’t know if I’m just dismissing Stark due me not really vibing with OG Stark, but I do miss some “Social Emperor” archetype. ASBR I do like, but the celebrity level fame is off-putting.
Chosen has a potential viability, but it also ends up lacking stuff compared to ASBR, or Emperor. I don’t know if that’s a potential path - expanding Chosen for wealth, romance as well. Or if it’d be better going with a “social emperor”. - Or if that’s just my limited perception of Chosen.
I ran HoM and I’m running C&C. I do not feel that anything was lost. However that I found in C&C, maturity and gravitas that I couldn’t find anywhere else. The strategic thinking, and the disdain for small scale thinking is on par with ASBR.
With HoM, I had moments of achieving what I want through diplomacy and an iron hand in velvet glove type of attitude. For example the time I managed to get an unethical high pressure salesman to leave my house without being rude to him, even though he largely deserved it. On C&C, I wouldn’t even have allowed the person in my house in the first place. I’m relentlessly filtering my interactions and I’m being very calculated in how I deal with people.
What is happening here is pretty simple. People decided to run one of the largest subs ever released by this company. They’re not getting fast results because it’s Crown & Capital, a life legacy building sub. It’s not Ascension or Love Bomb, fast acting subs. Now they’re out here complaining. Even though I’m having precise results from C&C, I know I haven’t scratched 1% of the surface yet.
I very much appreciate your thoughts on this. Especially this part:
But the fact still remains that EMPEROR never was and never will be known for having a strong social component. As always, the proper thing to do in this situation is to lighten the vibe by running Daredevil, Daredevil: True Social, Summertime – another title with an emphasis on this.
Never in the history of Subliminal Club have we seen ANYONE say: “Hey man, get on that Emperor if you want a dose of warmth and friendship.” This has never been a thing. Like ever. A few years ago, it was Emperor was TOO cold.
“Be ready to go into monk mode.”
“Be ready to be focused on your work.”
“Your social life may take a hit.”
How did this change with the release of ZPU tech? This has always been our advice for years now. Thousands of posts one can go through, and you’ll see us give the exact same advice:
Oh, this stack doesn’t feel dominant enough? Add EMPEROR.
Oh, this stack feels too cold and detached? Add a social title or one focused on connection.
GLM’s stoicism feels a bit joyless? Add Art of Happiness and Joy or Summertime.
So what is it about this title where this advice is no longer consistent with the same advice we have always given. Even way back when the titles were modular and shared constant script bases, we’d get tons of “is x module in x title.” And what would we say, every single time? While they do share a script base, the script has been modified to support the goals of that title. Sooooo, if you want the effects of that title, you should run that title.
This has never, ever, ever changed.
Not only that, but we have name-embedded major titles, where one can choose from what? 500+ modules to adjust how C&C would express? C&C is the engine, you add whatever “additives” you want to it to make it work the way you want.
Now, truth be told, I feel like this is another expression of this underlying desire for us to make more kitchensink titles when we are focused on making precision tools. And the thing is, we even made it easy for people to experiment more, temporarily waiving the core restriction on name-embedded majors. Guess what behavior we’ve observed:
People buying two name-embedded majors, both with 2 cores (so they’re essentially running 4 titles). Then they’ll buy a full third custom with two more cores and a full list of modules. Now the cores aren’t as long as the major title versions, but for the sake of conversation, we’ll say that they are now running six titles with additional modules.
The ONLY reason this halfway works is because the cores are so hyper-focused on their goals, and the inclusion of Adaptive Scripting and the such. And your major title stack is simply a “minor custom” at this point, since Zero Point titles latch on to the others – as we’ve said before.
Broad customs and broad stacks don’t work as well as focused ones. We already know this. The proper way to use C&C is to modify its expression toward whatever you want. More seduction, throw in WANTED. More emphasis on innovation, Nouveau R.I.C.H. More immediate money manifestation, regular R.I.C.H.
Nothing about this changed. C&C is no different, even if the original felt more “connecting.” Okay, I can accept that. Stack C&C with something that helps with this. These are the reasons we are not budging. The “concern” itself seems over-manufactured. Pushy. Almost manipulative. In addition to all this, Tthere are so many good results on this thread alone, and in the journals – and in support – that I see no reason to act.
In short: I am not convinced. Both HoM and C&C had very high aims. Creating a legacy or legacy business is not “easy work.” It is inherently much harder to achieve than other business aspirations. For someone to say, “I didn’t know that C&C required a commitment,” I call shenanigans. You’re trying to make a business that survives your own life. What about that says “lack of commitment?”
As for making a new title or the such, the pitch must make sense.
A “Social Emperor” to me just sounds strange – EMPEROR is the line focused on dominance, resilience, development of will, internal power. All the titles are about this, with such names as “The Art of War,” and “The Will to Power.” The mascot is literally an edgy ass ripped dude.
So what exactly is being asked here? Put it on the roadmap, we will consider it.
This is more Ascended Mogul territory. Or at least that’s what’s been planned.
Technically, everyone I’ve read of on here that’s used it had quick results.
The issue I see here is a difference in expression of internal state and social prowess. E:C&C shifted from a skill based mastermind approach to something much deeper—alignment.
Which I think is better for the sub concept. I mean why will an EMPEROR waste time with someone that doesn’t fit his vision? Or would you prefer to engage the person and then they flake down the line?
Or go through the effort of convincing one that is not on the same wavelength? If that is what is needed there are skill building subs for it.
Also with the catalogue expanding, subs need to be completely differentiated and specialized. Hence, why we have the new Crown & Capital and once again, this is an EMPEROR title. This is the core and narrower expressions can be modified.
To me, it seems to be a closer expression of the original vision, just enabled now by the current tech available.
And no, I don’t think a spin-off version is currently needed. This is the same issue we had with Stark. Stark got its spin-off and suddenly it was too dominant? And everyone that uses it talks about it at some point, even though that was exactly what was requested.
Imagine we get a E:C&C classic and someone pops in here scared that they are too soft and afraid to be taken advantage of, given the amount of resources they manage. Do we request another spin-off?
Finally, the actual issue that might be going on with new stack requests are potentially two things
Expectation mismatch of the user’s vision and the concept of the sub. Are you truly using the right sub?
Skill at wielding the sub. Since they can’t regulate the sub expression, they request a new one. Which can be resolved with adaptive scripting and stacking. Or rather engage in improving conscious guidance?
I don’t think a spin-off is necessary as well, but I am indeed open to it. I can certainly accept and work with the notion that HoM expressed with more… I guess, social connection than C&C’s strategic connection. I think that is a given, especially when you look at the features. But as I stated before, that most likely came from the Standard Scripting that was included in every title.
I mean, many of you were there when we removed the “Zero Point Primer” from all the titles. The issue we ran into was the fact that people generally run three titles, and thus they were getting hit with the Primer more than the actual scripting, which led to increased recon in the early Zero Point Preview days.
We decided that it made more sense to simply remove it and each title would then have dedicated, focused scripting, since again – the majority of people run three titles anyway. What I won’t accept (and the only reason I really got involved in the first place), is this notion that Zero Point Union itself is somehow “flawed” because certain expectations regarding HoM were not met.
I can go right over to the Summertime thread – which you can see for yourself – and see the results of a ZPU title without baggage. Every time this notion rises up, I will most certainly present you with hard opposition – a hard wall, because the data I can clearly see with my own eyes indicates otherwise.
If a spin-off or some other solution is to be built, it would be done by convincing us to create something new, not destroy what is existing and what people are enjoying. Sell us on this “Social Emperor” idea. Convince us in a manner other than bringing doubt to Zero Point Union without true and logical cause. Though earlier I said the idea is off the table, I will soften my stance on that part, so long as that boundary is respected.
So, what exactly would this this spin-off be? What’s the difference between this new title and C&C? Or the difference between this version and other titles. How does one make an EMPEROR title social without betraying the product line itself? Convince us.
EDIT: Building a title is incredible work. And I will admit that the challenge of such a title is appealing. So, tell us how the customer base would benefit from this title. What is it exactly?
(I never used HoM, so don’t know about the feels and am incredibly happy with C&C.)
It doesn’t really seem that farfetched. Maybe going a bit more by the ruler in his court and diplomacy, using the social aspect and an inpeccable facade as tools. It should include aspects of Inner Circle, The Art of War and True Social. (Last one is the biggy. In the sense of: Reading your opposite, knowing what so say and when. Maybe with some elements of BL:ITW for analyzing complex social and business structures.) A bit like the House of Habsburg: Marrying kingdoms insteadt of conquering them.
Networking and ruthlessness would also come handy for political activists.
Don’t know about the “warmth”. Not sure how this would work in an Emperor title.
The current Emperor is social enough to help find new friends and be invited to places.
The current Emperor helped me a lot socially it’s not Stark but I mean it was a really nice experience.
Emperor is just everything even if the social aspects are not perfect they are more than enough. And really great. I mean the average person will get his social skills up there just by using the current Emperor.
It didn’t change we are just used to a more social smart HoM from the old version. As someone here said it was an Emperor with TWTP and smart social maneuvers who could close the deals without resistance of others. Out smart everyone easily that’s how it felt.
To sum up:
ECC is trying to achieve very strong goals without apologizing. ECC is less dependent on others.
HoM was genuinely softer… maybe too soft.
So that’s that.
Maybe I wanted ECC to socially maneuver and to have more TWTP to it? Not sure.
I think you need a very strong basis to run ECC.
With HoM you didn’t. At least I didn’t.
Every last one of these suggestions are listed as features directly in the copy. They are directly in the copy because these are the exact same suggestions that showed up in the C&C thread. We included exactly that. You’re asking us to build the exact same title again – the one you’re already having trouble running.
You’re just experiencing recon because the goals are so high. You got the title you requested. You just need to stack something with it right now that assists with relaxation and enhancing results over time – like Summertime or Dragon Reborn: Regeneration – to help with this early recon.
You are discussing “feel,” and not “feature set.” And if we are discussing “feel,” that is dependent on the individual’s response. HoM’s script was shorter and had less features. Of course it was easier to run and get immediate results. C&C has more features. More scripting. More scripting means more potential for recon and for results to take a bit longer.
We are considering a sort of “Crown & Capital Lite.” This would be included with C&C – but not the core. It will not contain any new tech and contain 1:1 feature parity with C&C. Make no mistake, this is a stripping of depth from some of the features to enable easier usage. Think of it as a preparatory stage.
Not opposed to this- but not sure if it’s that nessecary with the adaptive scripting. Seems like people’s main complaint is of C&C not performing the same way socially as HoM, which I think there is a very simple solution for- adding a social sub to your stack or building a custom. Literally Chosen-True Social- WDB - Summertime - Inner Circle - True sell would probably all virtually accomplish the same thing.
For the record, I did not expierience social issues while running C&C with EOG 2 (which I believe adds that same sense of positivity and communication scripting).
EDIT: Unironically it might be nice for there to be access to the original longer versions of titles after a little while of running them. Was gonna ask for it as a QPro feature but if lite versions are becoming a thing now it might be nice to include.
Not sure it is actually needed though. C&C is what it is. For people who don’t like it, there are countless other subs to pick from. I’ll go as far as saying that the best way to find out who C&C is not a fit for is to see who complaining. C&C doesn’t feel social? That’s perfect for someone like me who is already overly social. I just want the seriousness of a legacy building sub. If you want a social feel, just go add a social sub to it. Or build a custom.
From Stark is not masculine enough to C&C is not social enough, I’m starting to believe that some people are intentionally trying to turn every major sub into a kitchen sink product that does everything. I remember people asking for romance in ASBR. I was like “What the f.ck!”
There are three slots for a reason. Stop crying and complaining and start stacking.
Yes! C&C is a beast, but this could be awesome. I will definitely circle back on this to make a case. I have a REALLY clear sense of how valuable C&C is now and how potentially cool/useful something that is more closely attuned to what people are talking about/what I experienced with HOM could be as well. Stacking does not come close to mimicking the effects in my experience, although True Social and even WB (more than WDB for me) add great elements to C&C social aspect. It’s not about social to me at all. I think C&C is completely perfect as is and with more time on it. Really value a lot about it. I also do also think this could be a cool ‘spin-off’ differentiated sub. I will make a case for this later when I have bandwidth.
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