Can you show your vulnerability to woman without losing attraction?

Questions and Comments
#22

That was the first red pill book I read.
The starting point of a multi-year downturn in my relationship for which I still pay to this day.

YOu have to understand where this comes from. Return of Kings and SoSuave were the pages that birthed the Red Pill. Rollo Tomassi really only took all those infos and put it on a blog/book.

But these guys were players. They were NOT interested in long-term. They just wanted to fuck.
Nothing else.
With multiple women.

Which is honestly cheap and easy. You just need to learn a bunch of tricks and youll get most of those easy women to spread their legs.
But good women are immune to that.

If THAT is your source on how to handle women, you are in for a tough ride.
Ive been there for many years. Now that I focus on love and cherishing my wife, or any woman in my life, they react entirely different.

So, if you are the sensitive, LOVING guy, who wants an emotionally deep relationship, the Red Pill is NOT your way. I recommend dropping it all as fast as possible.

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#23

Being vaulnrable is how you deeply connect with people period. The misconception of vaulnrability equaling weakness is a shallow as it untrue. The problem when it’s unearned and needy. Being needy for a positive reaction, affirmation or understanding makes any man far less desirable.

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#24

It depends on the woman and the situation. Same with other men.

It’s a shame you had that experience, but that’s the way some people are. The more noble way to react would be to treat any human being with the love and brother-sisterhood that helps mutually develop strength. But only some people understand this concept and it’s very common nowadays for “normals” to use anything to get an advantage over others.

Tbh, if you have a strong enough sexual or romantic connection with the woman it may be enough to get over the cognitive dissonance. Otherwise I would be cautious and gauge the persons nature before opening up to them on that level. Maybe test the waters with some smaller vulnerability and observe the reaction.

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#25

sounds like a challenge

#26

Dang!

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#27

:point_up_2::point_up_2::point_up_2: This!
Fantastic summary.

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#28

Good question to ask when evaluating ideas:

Am I using this idea to help me with reality or am I using this idea to protect me from reality?

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#29

Of course, you can show vulnerability to woman without losing attraction?
Recently I showed a woman an injury on my right calve and she even helped me with it, you know with medication and such. No lost attraction at all.

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#30

Horrible if that happend to you, but when a person does that, there was never a loving relationship to begin with

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#31

This is just toxic. Men are not weak for wanting to be heard, everybody has emotional needs. If a person is like that he just needs self love, not judgement and a kick from a women

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#32

The need to draw hard lines around things, to categorize, to define, it’s just…It’s limiting, it’s really limiting.

It brings to mind the old Zen parable of emptying your cup.

A nobleman had taken an interest in Zen, he read everything that he could, he was verifiably obsessed with Zen. One afternoon, he invited a Zen master for tea. The Zen master started the tea ceremony, as the nobleman talked and speculated about Zen, the nature of Zen, and Zen practice.

The Zen master smiled as the man spoke, and began to fill his cup. The nobleman continued babbling on, until the tea overflowed from his cup, spilling all over the tray.

“The cup is already full!” the nobleman exclaimed.

The Zen master smiled, “Yes, the cup is full. And a full cup cannot be filled, can it?”

You see, there is such a temptation to define, to make sense of things, to invent rules, to model our reality within boundaries that we understand. This can be useful, because if our models are good, then it gives us the freedom and power to exact change in our environment. If you know how someone will behave, then you can alter your behavior, shift yourself around like a flowing river, and get what you want.

The problem is, that most of the models that we build about our environment are actually shit, only partially true, or outright lies.

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#33

I think “showing vulnerability” needs to be defined.

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#34

Don’t think there’s one right answer but this is just me and my experience.

Depends on what kind. I’d rather talk to my best friend about these things.

It’s not in my nature to bare my soul to anyone, I keep something for myself. It’s just how I’m wired.

About the relationship, I don’t know anyone who’s perfect. I have weaknesses and hang ups as well and if someone I’m with isn’t okay with that, then I’m not ok with that either. What’s the point.

Sometimes I do get tired, and I need a respite. I expect my romantic relationship to be a source of nourishment, of safety, of joy and of warmth.

There are times I doubt and I want encouragement too, what kind of a relationship would it be if something basic like that cannot be provided.

I don’t think I’ll be happy in a relationship if I have to pretend to be something I’m not. That would be unfair to me and I’m too lazy to play that charade.

That said, if I catch myself being “weak” about petty reasons, I try to curb that or at least not to show it.

I myself find those traits in me unattractive. Being human, doesn’t mean I don’t set some standards for myself.

I also try not to show when I feel insecure or jealous, but sure it does happen from time to time and I do express it so she knows I’m not comfortable and where the boundaries are.

Thing is, when I do, and she crosses that line, that part that I have left for myself gives me the strength to walk away if I must.

If I’m very invested in the relationship It’ll hurt me, but I’ll die if don’t. At that point, it’s more self preservation for me to walk. I’m a romantic at heart, not a fool.

She knowing that I can and will walk away seems to help strengthen my relationships over the years. There’s a degree of respect there, which I think is important.

It’s human to be vulnerable to things, but I don’t see much benefit in showing all that specially to a romantic partner. She’s a person too and dumping all my baggage on another human being isn’t fair.

What I’m saying is, I try to calibrate that and not go all in.

She can show her weaknesses to me, I’m fine with that and I won’t judge her for it.

There are things I will show, and there are things I keep for myself, or otherwise I’ll judge me for it.

The way I see it, she sees me as a source of strength in her life if she needs it, and I get to keep my pride in my eyes.

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#36

@apollo You’ve got the guts to walk away when respect’s crossed, but are you brave enough to let someone truly see you, or does keeping that last part of you hidden just keep you safe but lonely? Maybe it’s not about what you hold back, but who you’re afraid to let in.

#37

I would disagree.
I’m in a deep loving relationship.
Yet my fiancee sometimes does this sometimes.
Not because she doesn’t love me.
But because she’s hurt.

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#38

It’s easier to perceive

The pain we receive

than the pain we cause.

When it comes to our own pain, we feel it.

Our own pain is obvious to us and should be obvious to the whole world!

Other people’s pain is, in contrast, not a direct visceral experience for us, and even trying to be aware of it requires us to use our imagination.

No matter how sensitive or empathetic you feel you are, it is unavoidable that you have sometimes overlooked the pain of others, while strongly emphasizing your own.

This is not an excuse, but it’s an explanation.

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#39

I get it, but there’s a difference between being hurt and using someone’s vulnerability against them. Love doesn’t justify crossing that line. If someone consistently weaponizes your trust in moments of conflict, it’s not just about being hurt—that’s a deeper issue that can damage the relationship.

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#40

A deep truth about human nature, but with an idealist quality.

dont you think that the focus on our own pain being more important could be seen as justifying selfishness, rather than challenging it @Malkuth ?

#41

Appreciate the reply.

I suspect that I’m not fully understanding the point that you’re making. And that you might not have fully understood what I was expressing.

Firstly, your own pain is not more ‘important’ than the pain of others. It is, rather, more immediate and accessible to perception. The difference is one of proximity, not of significance. This is a practical consequence of our structural limitations; it is not a principle or a consequence of the moral universe.

Secondly, my point here is that, as with all of our limitations, it takes effort over time to shift, transform, or overcome. It does not tend to just ‘happen by itself’. You don’t just find yourself in the Olympics, in most cases. In general, you’ll need to work at it to get there. So if you meet someone who has never competed or won a medal in the Olympics, it’s probably not a cause for you to be shocked, surprised, and dismayed. Or to fall into an existential slump. It’s understandable that they have not competed in the Olympics, because generally it’s much, much easier not to qualify than to participate.

Similarly, it is a fact that our identities tend to be organized egocentrically. This is not a bad thing, but it is, generally, a somewhat selfish thing. Often a bit mediocre and disappointing. But there are good reasons for it. Imagine if a car was coming towards you and you did not have sufficient egocentrism to discern which body should move out the way.

Our egocentrism makes a lot of sense. But it’s a starting point, not an ending point.

When you find someone who is stuck and paused at that point, and who is living in a condition of excessive egocentrism, it should not be shocking; maybe just a bit disappointing.

We have the potential to develop far beyond our default settings, and beyond our lowest common denominators. We don’t have to, but we can.

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#42

Thanks for explaining, Malkuth. I understand that egocentrism comes from seeing our own pain first, not that it’s more important. But how do we move past it? If egocentrism is natural, how can we stop it from causing harm or making us ignore others’ pain, while still taking care of ourselves?

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