@anon46881528 : So if taking action to manifest is a limiting belief, I know a couple of young men who want to become professional soccer players at the highest level. Can you tell me if they can do that without taking a ton of action like training for hours almost everyday, watching game film, talking to agents and professional teams and so on? You mean they can stop playing soccer altogether and visualize instead and soccer teams will contact them with multimillion contracts that thousands of people are looking for?
5 Likes
Add ‘Free Will’ to your model.
Then the principles and emphases will make more sense.
It is up to you to choose how to express these resources and to choose which paths to follow.
The way that you express your choices is through the actions you take.
Nothing is forced on you.
We’re not doing magic tricks here. We’re applying augmentative technologies.
8 Likes
In our internal research, we have found no benefit in using manifestation techniques obsessively and forcing positivity, and only a handful of testers (about 20%) of the group who were given access to proven and tested manifestation techniques experienced statistically significant improvement in overall results compared to the group who was just following our guidelines of action, listening to our subliminals and journaling.
“Statistical significance” in only 20% of a subpopulation defined by the results isn’t statistical significant at all. This is not how hypothesis testing works.
Interesting.
But it depends on what you mean by ‘a subpopulation defined by the results’.
In this case, the overall universe seems to be ‘People applying Subliminal Club programs in order to achieve specifically desired outcomes’.
The comparison, within this universe, is between A (people who apply only Sub Club programs as the sole intervention) and B (people who apply both Sub Club programs and intensive manifestation-focused techniques as a combined intervention condition).
(Mind you, to establish the validity, legitimacy, reliability of any of these constructs, would require the constructs to be specifically operationalized and defined. Those definitions have not been shared in the brief vignette. So, there’s that. But still, assuming that the variables were reasonably defined and established we can continue…)
Assuming that the criteria for establishing valid, testable variables had been met, the above comparison could certainly be made. Equivalent questions are evaluated statistically with simple T-tests all of the time. And in fact as mentioned in the next sentence, a 20% improvement in one group over the other would usually be recognized as a pretty noteworthy result. It’s just that we’re not in an academic setting, and the threshold for a desirable result is quite a bit higher.
That’s how I understand the point.
But I could certainly be missing something.
How do you see the question differently?
There is no 20% improvement in a group reported. It is reported that “a handful of testers (about 20%) of the group who were given access to proven and tested manifestation techniques experienced statistically significant improvement” But this is not how significance testing works. For significance testing, you would look at everyone; otherwise, you would bias your results upwards. It looks like the “proven and tested manifestation techniques” had no statistically significant effect whatsoever.
A sentence of the form “X% of the treatment group had statistically significant effects” makes no sense statistically.
You’re correct that I mistyped the 20%. There was actually no reported effect size.
But, what about the larger point?
It’s not that the treatment group is statistically different to the treatment group. You’re right. That would make no sense.
But that’s not actually what’s being said.
What’s being said is that Treatment Condition A showed some improvement over Treatment Condition B, but that, while significant, the difference was not large enough to be considered worthwhile.
That was actually the main point of my post. What’s your opinion about that?
I think what is actually said makes no sense. I’ve seen even famous medical researchers commit statistical blunders, so I’m skeptical about the analysis being done well. The general point that the whole manifesting culture is useless is something I fully agree with though…
I see your point now.
Your critique (which is valid) is largely about the use of statistics language. The way that the results are being described leads you to question whether the analysis was set up properly in the first place; because usually we wouldn’t talk about 20% of the treatment group.
That’s true.
If this were a formal between-groups comparison we would normally just talk about whether the mean outcome scores of one group as a whole had met statistical significance when compared to the mean of the other group.
So, it’s probably not a case of formal statistical analysis. It’s likely a case of the writer eyeballing the reported experiences of the participants and noticing a trend based on informal estimation.
So, yes, you make a good point.
Apart from the statistics language, however, the underlying assertion seems valid:
In essence, some people who use manifestation methods together with subliminals may experience a slight improvement on their results; but the size of that improvement is likely to be too negligible to justify worrying too much about this.
Takeaway: if you already do solid manifestation practices and love doing them in a balanced, non-obsessive manner, it probably won’t hurt. But if you’re the kind of person who, when doing these practices, gets very obsessive about policing your thoughts and intentions, you’re probably better off not engaging in the practices at all. The slight difference they might make is not worth the negative emotional cost.
That seems to be the takeaway from the article.
3 Likes
I don’t think thats a fair example. They love playing soccer so they are inspired to play it regardless. They are probably also inspired to watch game film and talk to agents. He didn’t say don’t take action he said don’t force it.
Also yes if the young men have already experienced being professional and phenomenal soccer players in their minds and they consistently program this into their subconscious through visualizations they are much more likely to create that outcome.The key is for them to get to the point where it is a certainty in their heads. By that point it’s become their identity. Think about how powerful that is. Now every action they take is from that frame expecting that outcome. More effortless; creating it through the mind and then taking action to bring it into the world which is more fun since your just being vs creating through action which can be stressful since your coming from the frame of not being a professional…
However, I agree with upwards but I also totally understand why subclub stresses taking action. For most people its easier to create a new belief through external reenforcement. Also for some people sitting down and visualizing for 30 plus minutes would probably take more effort then just taking action. For those people taking action shows them the potential of new results in their life thanks to the subliminals so they start to believe and accept new possibilities. That creates a new identity and then this snowballs in a feedback as they continue to take more action, gain new experiences which create new beliefs and a stronger identity (frame). Journaling helps cements these changes.
Loving the masterclass by the way. Full of great info I’ve already applied to help increase results tenfold.
3 Likes
Do you do visualisation?
The masterclass says to avoid anything like affirmation or other loa stuff.
Also I am curious about the masterclass if you run romance or wealth sub and you feel bad because yiu are still in scarcity why not do some affirmation for lifting ourself up?
1 Like
@anon46881528 I’m really confused in your difference between forced action and inspired action. There are intuitive nudges on these subs to help guide you in the right direction. But not everyone is going to be able to follow those depending on their level of self awareness.
You’re saying a sub should give you a guaranteed streamlined path to success? I think that’s heavily dependent on an individual being able to trust their own judgement and intuition which varies person to person. It’s like if someone gave you a map to a destination but you don’t know how to read it it’s useless. People are different, I think action is emphasized for ease of use. Not many people want to get into the details of how a sub works, they just want to get on with their life. Ironically I think individuals with less introspection or inward focus can have an edge because they focus on doing vs thinking.
Also have you read Reality Transurfing by any chance?
2 Likes
I have something to point out… but it’s better if I PM it to you, lol.
I think here lies the point and is why they state to take action because it’s easier to force it sometimes than to be super self aware and get nudges.
I used Emperor Black a week or so ago and it made me super bored of everything I wanted to do - watch TV, sleep (I mean a nap btw), play Call of Duty etc. I was incredibly oblivious of the fact it was telling me to take action on my goals which I did end up doing because I was bored of everything it else.
It pretty much forced me to take action, but also inspired me to be there. However it took all day because I was so oblivious to it, which is my own fault.
5 Likes
I tend to agree with your view of blind action does not lead anywhere.
To start, i want to provide a counterbalanced view: I believe the email did state that specific actions targeted to your overall goal is to be considered (i.e. written down) so that you can take steps towards those actions. so not necessarily blind action either.
I really am impressed with subliminal club (true sell being my best hitter ever, a product i took a flyer on lol; also i am in the middle of EOG starting stage 3 soon)
however, this is one of the biggest sticking points i have with the company - i am of the belief that action can only occur if there is a path to said action (inspired action as Upward has stated) and normally that would have to manifest itself out as a coincidence or a nudge or something - that is to say, give the subconscious a cookie trail to follow instead of stating you must do XYZ (again i did say the email today provided helpful pointers as to what “action” would require - journaling seems to be the easiest action step possible).
So just everyone doesnt think i’m a rando and i randomly just comment on this, I want to balance this very minor critique out with a counterpoint: SubClub’s main competitor has laughably stated that one should not interfere in the throes of subliminal unfolding/blooming - which i think is a mistake either (Saint is right, models aren’t gonna bust down your door either) - but you can’t be running around there with your head cut-off and you can’t be just waiting inside your damn house for things to come either - there has to be a balance here.
but what do i know about subliminals im only a user i dont create these things lol. oddly enough, the manifestation bit will be tested in EOG stage 3 cuz thats where the manifestations, coincidences, nudges will be occurring and i’m looking forward to it 
1 Like
This feels like a bit of a Straw Man point though. Because:
No one has advocated “Blind Action”.
And, as always, it’s important to actually define what we mean when we use such terms. Otherwise, we’ll generate even more straw men.
“Blind Action” to me suggests the sense of a person taking ill-advised, poorly informed, and possibly even random action; basically actions for the sake of saying you took action.
Why would anyone do that?
Even if you simply read the product descriptions for any of the subliminal programs, it’s difficult to take ‘blind action’ because the descriptive copy usually contains some good-sense principles to get you started taking effective action.
It’s not that hard to think of at least basically useful action steps. And, in fact, this is actually precisely one of the places where the sub will start to help you. It will help you to learn better and better how to choose and take more effective actions that fit your personal style and situation.
We all learn through trial and error; but the subs can optimize that process to make fewer errors in fewer trials.
The subliminal is like a GPS device; not a teleportation device.
GPS is also “action activated”. For GPS to be at its most useful, you have to start driving.
Is that a “limiting belief”? Is: “In order to make the most practical, effective use of your GPS, start driving”, a limiting belief?
Yes; of course it is.
And so is the idea that we, humans, need to respirate oxygen to survive.
Some limits are appropriate and useful. Others are not.
It’s up to each of us to explore our limits, push against our limits, and to establish the difference between useful limits and unnecessary limits for ourselves.
That’s another thing the subs can help you to do.
But again, only if you choose to do that.
If you don’t want to go running; then don’t buy a pair of high quality running shoes.
Why would anyone do that?
By the same token, if you do invest in those high quality running shoes and then you decide to sit down on your steps and wait for them to make you the world’s fastest runner?
Well, in that case, limiting beliefs may not be your main problem.
6 Likes
Now run Nouveau R.I.C.H. and without taking action, manifest a business. Now, do you see how your argument fails?
As I’ve stated here before, the “law of attraction” can “work” in situations where the only exchange between the parties involved is time and energy. The moment a manifestation has a concretized element, creative visualisation as the sole method of manifestation begins to fail.
Why?
Because when we’re talking about money, for one person to gain, the only person has to lose. When you purchase a product at a store, they receive cash, you lose cash. If we made a subliminal that could just bring money to your doorstep, that money had to have come from somewhere. And without an exchange in value (and in this case, the value you gave to the source of the money equaling zero), you have stolen money from another individual.
Since money is so deeply linked to survival in the subconscious mind, it is almost impossible for you to manifest money without value exchange. Therefore, to resolve this issue, you must TAKE ACTION. You must open pathways of manifestation where the equal exchange of value can occur.
The Unfolding process in the Revelation of Spirit is one that occurs solely within the self, therefore no “value exchange” is necessary and creative visualization can improve results. But even then, you are still taking action, since what is the imagination anyway other than the creative exercise of the spirit?
Mind’s Eye is a subliminal to boost creative visualization, not necessary for manifestation purposes, but for art, writing, programming, etc.
That being said, if one were to run Mind’s Eye and proceed to attempt to manifest things through creative visualization, then even that is taking action, since that’s one of the use cases for the title.
We don’t force anything in our products. You are free to experience a lack of results from non-action if you choose.
This is incorrect. Inspired action comes first, then the belief changes through confirmation of the results of the action. You go to the gym, you’re out of shape. Through inspired action, you continue to go to the gym. You get results. You see biceps for the first time. The belief that your body can change and be healthy is now confirmed. This confirmation inspires more action, and the end result is achieved.
I’m going to say this again:
There’s individuals out there claiming they can make subliminal audio in which you have to take no action to get results. This is absolutely not true.
There is no system in nature – not a single one – where an action is produced without the exchange of energy. If you don’t eat, you die. If you don’t put gas in your car, it cannot run. If you don’t plug your computer up to a wall, it does not turn on.
There is NO SYSTEM in the physical universe in which a result can be produced WITHOUT energy being inserted into the system first.
In some situations, creative visualization can work. In most cases, you are better off taking action to kickstart the process.
15 Likes
This does not feel like a genuine attempt at discourse and deeper discussion - honestly, we’re tired of waxing philosophy with multitudes of people that don’t really come at it from an honest approach of wanting to learn more. We’ve done it before, attempting to explain the deeper intricacies of the universe, the human mind and the subconscious to people who came in with an already set viewpoint.
I’ll make it a lot simpler…
Because we know. All this, ie. the “forced” vs “inspired” action dichotomy, is not based in data. It is conjecture.
Our claims actually are based in data.
It doesn’t matter whether it is a limiting belief - what matters is what works.
If you’d like to go New-Age-No-Action style, that is your prerogative. Our programs are not created in any of the New Age beliefs and are not based in any spiritual tradition - so if you desire to utilize New Age knowledge, you are free to do so and our programs will not interfere with your beliefs.
However, be aware that this will not result in optimal results.
Always remember people - this world is not so simple to dilute it to a single 1 or 0.
A balanced synthesis of action and subliminal input is the most effective way to achieve genuine inner and outer change.
You have people not getting anywhere in life on both sides - on the “just action” and “just manifesting” camps. Each have their own reasons for it, and if you don’t believe me you are free to look up how many people are constantly complaining about a lack of results on Reddit and other social media. For both approaches. Seriously, go ahead and look - don’t just blindly believe me.
And yet with our approach of taking genuine action, regardless whether it is “inspired”, “forced”, whatever, combined with properly created subliminal technology, we have over 1400 results/reviews in the repository that is currently in development.
Develop who you are and your inner qualities. Develop your discipline, strengthen and sharpen your mind, forge your body into a well-oiled machine, cultivate your spirit and work towards your goals. The world is not going to wait for you, and nothing of value will simply land in your lap - a successful business, a perfect romantic partner, spiritual accomplishment - all of it will require discipline and focus.
And on the road there, you will have to use “forced” action through discipline, and you will have to use “inspired” action as pure motivation.
Use all of it.
27 Likes
Yes, we never said blind action. We said “take action.” The inclusion of “blind” was inserted to subtly bolster the individual’s argument.
When have we ever said to take blind action? We said to take steps to get the momentum going, even if it’s something as simple as registering a domain name for your business. The energy you feel from registering the name, that bit of hope and future anticipation of success leads to inspired action.
We could all go back and forth all day, but I assure you, we’d win this one by utilizing simple observation of the simplest laws of nature.
18 Likes
Actually without action there would be no existence.
Even your thinking and feeling is action.
All forms of action should be considered equal but for physical results you need physical efforts and action. Even if this means hiring someone else to do the work for you as you can see in many big cooperations. You exchange your life, energy and time for money and that money you then use for your survival… slavery if you ask me.
Want to escape that slavery you will have to work hard against the natural laws that bind you to such enslavement. This all begins in your mind and emotions.
Your change on the mental and emotional planes, sets you on a different path, directing you (if the mental and emotional transmutation is constructive) towards a more favourable objective and outcome, acted upon physically and made efforts towards, leading to a different destination, and eventually if persisted towards, a change in lifestyle.
That’s the whole concept.
Sure you can make other do the work for you, that’s the main concept of many of the major companies who have employees internationally, but their physical action is rewarded with a monetary exchange… hence why money is so powerful as it is directly linked to time and action, with time being the essence of physicality.
Often grand visions can’t even be achieved in a lifetime if you were to all the labour yourself, unless you can get others to do the work for you and help you to manifest and fulfill it. But someone must hold the vision in place, who guides the vision, who does the work.
I see this with many job offers, only a false narrative of team building. The lowest on the ladder, labourers do nothing more than physical labour, they don’t do mental and emotional building and work on the entity ever, they aren’t even allowed to think. Just physical labour in exchange for $$$
The higher you go, the less physical labour and often more mental work.
But even then, the physical labourers are required to work towards the vision and mission of the business entity. Without them, the entire business would stagnate as there would be none to execute on the goals and objectives that materialize aka manifest the vision over time.
Without the labourers in fact there would be little physical progress.
Jupiter, the module can help you to understand this all on a deeper level if you are interested in the knowledge and understanding of manifestation.
4 Likes
Its been engaging.
That grace of handling confusing topics…
in clear explanations.
Wid hollistic perspectives.
Dispelling doubts…
before they take shape.
Personally,
My favourite nugget from this series has been:
If recon hits and u loathe working,
That’s when u should do more work.
4 Likes