PLEASE READ: Fire vs. Saint Round 2

#573

@anon1637736 I’ve felt this as well. The difference we’re noticing could stem from several factors:

  • The sheer density and complexity of newer subs.
  • Overexposure when treating them like older tech.
  • The recon caused by more powerful scripts.
  • The necessity for proper action and patience during the integration process.
  • Newer subs and upgrades are becoming increasingly dense as users request more upgrades, tweaks, and added features. Each iteration builds on its predecessor, making scripts longer and more powerful. Almost feels like each new release needs to power creep the old, which is why the creators spend lots of time cutting down and trimming the scripts.

This could reflect back to something @Fire said when he recently answered a question about OG Stark & Wanted being easier than their Black/Artesian evolutions. Although that specific answer was regarding Black/Artesian titles, what i say is my own speculation.

I remember seeing disappointed reactions when @SaintSovereign mentioned long ago on how much of KB he had to cut down. I could be wrong but it was a very large chunk. Some reacted as if they got a " weaker " or " nerfed " version… But that is completely misguided since if we wanted the absolute strongest sub imaginable we need only to make a custom with 20 Cores… but that would be pointless if not insane.

Another aspect is sub hoping and changing stacks every other week. The instruction manual clearly states that subs are meant to be used in cycles and the masterclass states that in the example of a stack with 3 subs, the one replaced or rotated needs to be removed 1 - 2 weeks before being replaced with the new one. Not to mention how little people mention or talk about doing proper washouts which leads to concluding that some would rather deal with exhaustion/recon rather than do a proper washout each month

8 Likes
#574

I think this might be one of the main reasons.

For example using WB and SB for a week I have more dreams on the subject at hand and need more sleep.

It shows something is happening in the background.

Anyways Fire mentioned he noticed what some users talk about I guess there’s a reason for that as well.

#575

Please do so!! Consciously stacking good results and positive changes greatly helps in building self confidence and a strong belief in our own abilities to get what we want.

#576

This is a common misconception people have. Not the first time, not the last time. Even back when we first started we had people telling us how our very first technology level was better.

Some individuals vehemently claimed that the technology before New Dawn was better. Then when Q came out, some claimed New Dawn was the best ever and Q sucks in comparison.

Qv2 came out, and suddenly Q was the best thing since sliced bread. Then when we made the big jump to ZP, a couple individuals claimed we should revert because Qv2 was better.

With NSE, of course there’ll be people claiming ZP was better - although there’s less of this, as it isn’t so much a new tech level and rather a ZP feature (or if you’d like, a necessary feature for ZPU/early ZPU tech).

But I guarantee you that there will be a couple of individuals claiming ZP was the best technology ever made once we launch ZPU, and that we should revert asap.

Nothing more than a combination of factors working in unison - people having had results on an older technology so more reference experiences, the bloom effect (especially if there’s a washout period before the jump to new tech) and classic reconciliation hitting in a different way due to new tech, causing the usual illusionary effects and making one think they aren’t getting any results.

This usually goes away with more time on the new technology. Hopefully those couple few who say this will be more cognizant of this phenomenon with the next jump in tech.

17 Likes
#577

My main reference point comes from using the new Primal compared to the classic Wanted.
I used both for a cycle, and it felt like Primal needed more time to take effect, working in a more gradual and subtle way. In contrast, Wanted seemed to upload a completely new personality into my mind almost instantly.

Another example would be my experience with PS. It seems to take longer for results to manifest, possibly due to the NSE feature. I suspect this is because it aims to install beliefs more organically.

That said, I don’t have the full picture—this is just my attempt to describe my experience.

In any case, I’m not worried. Primal is an amazing title, and it definitely works. Meanwhile, PS could be described as “Primal Black” because its script feels denser and packed with more features, which likely explains why it takes a few weeks for the effects to kick in.

Thanks!

P.S
And I still want Wanted and Stark to get upgraded with the latest tech including NSE
:joy:

1 Like
#578

Is GM, Godlike Masculinity?

#579

GLM = Godlike Masculinity

GM = Mogul

GMX = Gaming Mastery X

2 Likes
#580

Frankly, this post is not helpful, and may cause me to experiment with the old technology more at the same time as ZP.

The Q tech worked when it came out, it did not magically cease to be effective when Qv2 came out, or when ZP and then ZP2 etc came out. I still count my results from Emperor Q and some of the QV2 stuff as some of the most profound of my four years. People only need to go back through the forum to see peoples results using the old RICH Ultima or Solace mask. Those were real, tangible results. And the recon was a clear sign of change being worked, usually recon of a form relevant to the sub.

I don’t think that demonizing the claims of people who think the old tech still has power is useful, if anything it will cause people to wonder why their objective comparison of experiences is being dismissed, and lead to conspiratorial thinking. I’m all for making results more obvious on the new tech, but lets cut the bull excrement about the old tech being primitive. It just simply wasn’t and isn’t the case.

1 Like
#581

I do seem to have better results as time goes on and the titles become more advanced but man do I miss being able to just loop something through the night as I slept. It was so cosy drifting off to white noise with subs just doing their thing.

I would kill for a title that was just incredibly simple and allowed to be used this way again.

#582

I believe Fire’s argument wasn’t that older technologies became ineffective. Instead, he observed that each technological advancement was initially met by some people with a brief period of perceived inferiority due to the factors mentioned, a cycle that ironically repeated with each new generation.

2 Likes
#583

I must have missed the part where Fire said Q or New Dawn are primitive.

But you shouldn’t forget that you grew a lot with them. When ZP was released you already had integrated a lot of Emperor.
Your frame of reference is different.
You can’t really compare them.

#584

Sure I can.

And I can do that without discounting the fact of results from ZP2.

I just think the trend to discount/dismiss the old tech is counter-productive. Sometimes real, honest to God recon and more in your face can be useful.

#585

Well they also cannot promote it as they discontinue old tech from website

#586

Your explanation makes sense to me.

Therefore I try to use objective metrics in order to measure my results with the different titles. That is additionally, to my journaling of anything that I notice in terms of personal changes.

For example with romance titles, the metric is the amount of women blatantly flirting with me and sexually throwing themselves at me. Because this either objectively happens, or it doesn’t. Or how many women I approach and what comes objectively out of it.

With wealth titles, the metric is how much money I have compared to before and how much money came in from unexpected sources or as a result of me putting in additional work. This too, cannot be faked. I either have more money or I don’t.

Or in other words, I always try to use objective metrics outside of my subjective perception as the ultimate measurement for results. Results that cannot be “waved away due to coincidence”.

Still, some titles (independent of tech level) produce very different results.
For example almost no wealth results with G:M, but big wealth results with ASBR and RICH.
I wonder why that would be the case?
If it is not the tech level that is responsible for that, it must be each title’s individual scripting and approach that finds the right angle to work with my subconscious mind?
Still a mystery to me…

2 Likes
#587

The primary point Fire was addressing (in another thread) is that Black Label/Artisanal titles generally take longer to show results because their objectives are more advanced and complex. He also emphasized the importance of having a solid foundation before using them, which is why he recommended starting with Wanted and Stark before attempting WB or SB.

Furthermore, his intention was never to undermine the effectiveness of the older technology—it clearly worked, or Sub Club wouldn’t exist today. Rather, his point was to address the recurring claims by some veteran users that the older tech is superior. Given that Sub Club has access to far more data than just the journals we see—spanning threads and support cases—it stands to reason that they wouldn’t invest in creating new formats and reworking all titles without substantial evidence that the new technology outperforms the old.

It’s important to remember that just because the new technology is superior doesn’t mean the old wasn’t effective. For instance, owning a Nokia 3210 was a significant technological advantage when no other phones were available. However, while it was highly effective for its time, that doesn’t negate the fact that a modern iPhone or Samsung Galaxy S24 is far more advanced—albeit with its own challenges that the Nokia never faced.

2 Likes
#588

I would speculate that GM addresses deeper, underlying issues first—ones that may not directly result in increased income but are foundational in nature. If the subconscious prioritizes resolving a particular issue that GM can address, but SB cannot, this would provide a clear explanation for the difference.

#589

The Revelation of Wealth has arrived. What will you do once you can see everything?

16 Likes
#590

Sounds like what WB and SB is doing to me without the foundation building
About GM I have not enough experience with it
I did move to Wanted and Stark for now but I just want to be clear for the record:
Persisting with WB and SB might work anyway after few cycles but it would be probably less fun

With GM I hope it does work… but yeah few users are not happy with this title as I understand
I do have GM in a custom but for now I put it aside because it’s Wanted + DRR time

BTW for the record
My first title from SubClub was RotNW and with good results! using it for 2 weeks and = sex with a new girl…
And KB is another one I’ve used which is a great title as well…
So… not sure what to say about it

1 Like
#591

The key is that if you lack a proper foundation, subliminals take longer to produce the desired effects. With a solid foundation, however, you can achieve excellent results with WB or SB right from the beginning. Without it, more time is required.

When I first ran Emperor as my initial title, I didn’t achieve the results I wanted after four months. The missing piece was the foundation. While Emperor did provide great improvements in resilience, it didn’t deliver what I was specifically seeking.

Ascension, on the other hand, produced the results I had hoped for from Emperor within the first week. With its narrower focus, it gave my subconscious fewer priorities to choose from, allowing it to deliver results immediately.

The beauty of the original Wanted and Stark is that they provide immediate, tangible results while simultaneously building the foundation for their Black Label counterparts. For example, if you were to run Wanted and Stark for nine months, followed by three months of WB and SB, you might achieve the same level of results after a year as you would from running WB and SB alone for twelve months. However, the journey would be far more enjoyable, as you’d experience consistent and rewarding progress throughout.

2 Likes
#592

I want to jump on that title once it is updated
For how long did you use it

Thanks :heart:

Exactly why I’m turning back to them
Stark had a very cool positive vibes I love it
SB is dominant but didn’t feel the positivity
And I know what Wanted is going to bring in few days lol many stares!