Oh god. I’m about to fall down this rabbit hole again lol
I like this, since starting C&C I feel much more like an Emperor.
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Thank you, and I appreciate that. I can ping you outside of this, but I am leaning towards trusting the new RICH will be way better for my use case
I think C&C is a better sub for its intended goal. It’s a better, more powerful sub.
It’s less compatible with my role or as a direct HOM replacement than I expected. So let me be clear, I am having trouble running it at this time for my role and purposes. I see in every way why it’s superior to its indended goal
I’m speaking, given my personal concerns for my situation, and as a user, the sub experientially is unrecognizable to HOM.
(Others are citing their experience on this as well. As stated, it’s not a bad thing, but it’s very different. I won’t tag them, but they can speak for themselves as well.)
This is about choosing what works for me, which is a vastly different direction from HOM as I am experiencing it, both subjectively and metrically (see below). My concerned was for titles showing up as vastly different in my experience in a way that disrupts something that has worked extremely well for me.
Not a critique on the direction chosen, but my attempt to be responsible for an evolution that may not include me.
While I care about subjective experience, my main focus is on results.
I’m talking metric results as well. Everything I do is measured in lead quantity, lead quality (metrically analyzed through my company) , calls held, calls cancelled, calls reached, revenue, revenue per client, it all shows up as personal income, and it’s compared against other sales representatives given the shared landscape.
For me personally, every metric I have has tanked since switching to C&C - and it’s gotten worse, and the entire team has gotten signficantly better. I’m working and grinding signficantly harder to meet weekly metrics, even though I’ve been outperforming everyone on all metrics for over a year. It’s progressively gone down every week. I moved into microloops starting week 2, and changed nothing else with my stack. As part of that decrease in everything. My experience on calls is signficantly more challenging, and signficant less access to my own ‘sales brilliance’. I can subjectively feel the qualitative difference in the approaches on sales as easily as I can tell the difference talking to a woman or socializing on Khan vs. Primal seduction, vs. Primal. It is like looking at colors or picking different objects, flavors. Its obvious.
So I guess, given that C&C is such a superior feature-wise, I’m not clear on why there’s a sudden drop metrically for me so much. Maybe recon, or maybe I am incompatible with the sub given ZP ‘revealing’ nature?
It’s very easy for me to see how subs affect concrete results, given my schedule and work.
I’d love to weild it more effectively, and I can keep C&C in rotation, but not sure how long to give it before making an assessment outside of what I am seeing
That’s an awesome result with the $700K, and I’m excited to see and hear more things like that. I’ll do a full report later on the Crown and Capital thread as there are many benefits I am seeing outside of work.
I’m not just referring to warmth. I’m referring to the sales capacity that HOM gave in my experience. There was much more than warmth, but the essence was a kind of trust and a mutual working through to arrive at a deal, a sale, or an outcome together, it shows up as a kind of verbal wizardy where I can spin antyhing into a win-win. Also, a high-volume lead manifestation quality that happens on HOM.
That’s definitely fair; the intended purpose and goals are there.
I specifically said the re-imaging has me concerned, as the updates and improvements may not work the same for me. Based on my experience with C&C. I am such a vocal fan of everything here, and I have strong results quickly with almost every sub. I really, really wanted and have been pulling for C&C to work for my situation and overall. And I’m just struggling with it for my main income driver and given the improvements not sure why.
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Well, I was actually thinking of your use case the other day, and while I regret that C&C isn’t performing for you the way you expected (and I do believe you – given the extensive analysis you applied), I do want to point out a bit of advice that’s in line with how to use these newer ZPU titles. And this is just my perspective from the outside looking in, with knowledge of ZPU.
I wouldn’t look at your C&C run as a total loss or failure. ZPU is designed – through adaptive scripting and anti-recon – to let you know not only if a title fits, but to also bring forth the qualities that will lead to success into your conscious mind. And there are a few things that you have now identified – with complete confidence – that you MUST have to find success. Warmth and rapport is one of them, and this is something you’ve repeated multiple times. And that is a major result, even if it’s not necessarily direct money.
And while I’m sure you knew this before running C&C, or had an idea – you’re very headstrong about it now, as if you recognize now that this is non-negotiable. So again, while I really do feel frustrated that some fans of HoM feels it’s lacking in this department, this is one of the reasons we’re focusing the titles like this in the first place: so it’ll never happen again.
Since HoM was never intended to produce that effect, being part of the Emperor line, while we tried to replicate it, we ultimately have to chalk it up to the early stacking tech (tech we still use, just really updated) that would attempt to merge and blend titles together. The issue with this is that results became diffused – it was difficult to identify which title produced which results. The idea here is that the expanded copy, which describes the scripts in great detail should alleviate this as well.
Once customers like yourself started emerging, who were using the titles in a very professional manner, we decided to respect that and really focus the titles, separate them into brands, and other strategies that would clarify the tools and skills available. Given your dedication to rapport, there are simply better titles that can achieve it, with those features spelled completely out. So, I’m not trying to convince you to continue with C&C – you have already proven to yourself that it’s simply not feasible right now.
I am, however, trying to demonstrate the beauty in ZPU that you can use to accelerate results. Gone are the days of diffused results and having to wonder what title to run. The goal is to put the right features in the right titles to accelerate them. I can assure you two things:
R.I.C.H. is faithful to the original. It is a manifestation title, with lots of scripting to help you get more opportunities to build wealth. And, EoG: True Sell will surpass any idea of HoM being the best for sales. This misalignment of expectations between C&C and HoM is rare, in my opinion. There were a lot of factors that made things difficult to navigate. True Sell and RICH won’t have those issues. True Sell because it was a short but potent script anyway, easy to upgrade and incorporate. And R.I.C.H. was full-blown manifestation. Easy to upgrade. New R.I.C.H easier to wield.
I also appreciate your understanding of the nuances of the situation. We have indeed taken everyone’s suggestions into mind and are very much attempting to ensure that RICH provides a very similar experience. And we are working HARD on EoG: True Sell. So, the warmth and rapport that you feel is lacking on C&C – that will not be the case for EoG: True Sell. All of the features together will heighten your sales career.
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I was hoping for the 8 track version. 
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@Azriel it could be the way it’s incorporated in your overall stack as well? As it seems C&C is really brief micro loops, compared to the rest of your stack, also consisting of quite a few cores/customs at longer duration.
I understand the pressure of being in high ticket sales and how challenging it can be to do any experimentation, but the results I am seeing on C&C are amongst the best I’ve had with subclub at this point, and the inner-circle type scripting is leading to extremely fast changes in connections with both prospects, as well as executive leadership.
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I definitely feel the love. And appreciate the full response here.
I don’t see it as a failure at all. Actually, and ironically, I really like the sub. It feels like my life has become very purposeful again as I look at where I want to go and address many unresolved things. I’m thinking bigger and feel compelled to act on things I’ve speculated about for way to long. It’s just very stressful to be underperforming at work though, so hard to focus on those other things fully. If I clicked into a groove with this sub in work fully, I would love to run it.
It’s true I may be being very headstrong in what is needed, and my disconnect from what is expected. (I’ll post at the end my experience with what I mean by warmth and how it’s showing up for me personally) I may not be giving room for C&C to express a different strategy- like I’m sabotaging it unconsciously
I’ve got a little time left in my test before I wash out, so I’m going to go with C&C through the end of the week without trying to make it something it’s not.
That sounds awesome. My sense is the misalignment of expectation was just the orientation of opportunists socially, influence relationship, relationship first, business second, user experience to a more emperor-driven, productive, strategic, right relationships and alignment focus. In the right environment, the latter will still show up like the former, but it gives less room to tolerating or influencing the wrong fits.
Of course, I hate to be that squeeky wheel about it. And I’m sure those updates will be awesome. C&C is awesome, I wish it was flowing better at work.
(I do not think warmth and rapport are everything in sales by any means, but having a connection, willingness, trust, admiration, and real influence on a lead is- and warmth and rapport are means and context to getting there. For my sales b2c in a human-centric, sensitive subject, the warmth/ people’s trust, or at least not putting them off, is essential, especially important when dealing with skeptical, challenging people who require transforming their experience/attitudes rapidly. More than any skill or ability, strategy or positioning - it’s the right leads who show up without needing that- that can be game changers though)
Summary
My guess about what creates the effect that didn’t translate into C&C is that
- Transcendental connection, rather than dictating all relationships, the focus in C&C is on the right relationships.
- Stronger internal sovereignty Emperor, so more individualized so less social for its own sake
- HOM seems to be aggressive rather than defensive in pursuit of opportunity, whereas C&C is more like Emperor: The will to power or PCC in its ‘defensive’ first-opportunistic second.
(My sales is B2C inside sales in a very human-centric, sensitive field, so there are only two things that matter
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Quality leads who are fits and show up with a great attitude and purchasing capacity.
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Ability to deal with everyone else who is difficult, skeptical, uncertain, but an acutall buyer and have them transform their experience in real time. So there is a coaching element guiding the sale.
‘Warmth/rapport’ is important for effectively navigating that 2nd part as the backdrop: be ‘ruthless’, straight, direct, authoritative, ask questions, etc., without causing problems. The gravity on C&C is so strong it seems to make it very difficult to communicate or communicate in a way where people are willing/and or vulnerable with me, so they experience that I’m repelling people or great leads will certainly get derailed in the middle of a convo and go running. Like were talking and it’s going well and then bam- there out. This was mitagated by adding ASBR but still there. It’s actually really odd lol. Conversely, if I were seeing more fits, lead volume, and quality leads, it wouldn’t matter, but that is less too. )
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I ran it in minutes the first week or so.
Yes, this is part of it. The pressure is high, and I’ve forgotten about the job’s pressure with how things have been going. And if I had this experience in 2024, where I had way more ups and downs, I wouldn’t have questioned it as much. But given the year I just had - my monster first 2 weeks in January on previous stack the contrast to be struggling so much all of a sudden now is rough, and then everyone on my team suddently killing it like I was 3 weeks ago definitely led to self doubt spiral, which C&C got caught in as well (will it work for sales, is it compatible, ? etc)
That’s awesome to hear it working so well for you, and I would love to hear more in your journal. I’m testing it a bit longer after this whole conversation.
I’ll revisit it in the future or with the new R.I.C.H/ EOG: True Sell once I get things stabilized again, if needed.
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@SaintSovereign would it be possible to combine the Anti-Recon and Adaptive Scripting modules into a single Synergy module?
It would be great to be able to add them to name-embedded versions of older titles, and also not feeling like we’d need to choose between one or the other of these great modules.
Or, alternately, perhaps for name-embedded titles only, could they simply be included as standard for titles that lack that scripting (and perhaps still leaving room to add one module as is usual)?
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Trying to plan subs for 2026 in detail.
@SaintSovereign is there a broad timetable/roadmap when you are going to nail down ZPU and how the procedure will be? (Procedure in the sense of: Will all the sub prior to ZPU getting script adjustments or “just” the new ZPU scripting.)
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I relate to @Azriel in some aspects through my own experiences, mainly with Khan pre NSE and after with the former having the most effortless ( in yo face success ) financially and romantically. While the latter had me fighting for dear life dealing with severely limiting coping mechanisms and persistent beliefs
Through my own subjective experiences, the old and new Khan are vastly different titles. And to a certain extent, pre NSE titles gave more direct and obvious results with less worry about over exposure vs NSE’s subtle yet radically transformative process.
i believe many have their own version of this! A specific version of a certain title which A: Simply clicked / flowed , B: The timing was just right or C: Is perhaps reframed differently when remeberd.
Longterm subjective experiences play a role also. As one of the creators of these titles, you don’t have the same luxury of using em as the customer freely does, however it might make tricky to relate to the 1% who might be used to certain effects and results when the other 99% are loving the upgrade
This might be worth consideration. In my case, i enjoyed old Khan as much as i struggled, and benifited, from new Khan.
Long story short. I get what @Azriel is coming from especially considering being in sales depends largly on daily preformances and flow… which is kinda similar to writing the script for subs… however i am also fully on board with the newer tech/direction. I too, like pre NSE Khan, have evolve and upgrade.
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I had a comparable experience with old and new Love Bomb. It wasn’t about more/better results but completely different ones: oLB is the fluffiest cotton candy sub and nLB was the roughest lecture in learning self love ever.
The old subs for me often were immersive experiences not too different from mood carrying music that resonates for a good while and the new ones teach you a craft, which is of course harder but in its way permanent.
ZPU will probably adress this. IIRC it was originally planned as the union of the old and the new approach and my guess is RAIKOV scripting will play a central role as it is learning your craft by immersing yourself.
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@SaintSovereign to somewhat echo an earlier post by @TheGreenMan , I’ve been planning to run an older sub (Emperor or Primal).
It would be helpful for timing purchases if we could have even a rough idea of what to expect.
In this case, I mean are you planning to upgrade all older titles with Anti-Recon and Adaptive Scripting (I mean prior to any later wholesale upgrade to the title, e.g. as with RICH and HoM)?
And if so, is there an existing rough timescale for this?
I can buy a Primal or Emperor-based custom around the end of this month, but if it were simply a case of waiting another month and then getting a version that had been upgraded with Anti-Recon, Adaptive Scripting and anything else you might choose to add in at that time, then I’d have no problem waiting for that.
It’s not to try to pin you guys down (as if I could lol), but just to have a rough idea about the upcoming plans so that I can roughly make my own plans accordingly; hope this makes sense! 
Finally, the obvious question I suppose is, if I take existing Primal or Emperor and put it in a custom with the current Anti-Recon and Adaptive Scripting modules, is that ultimately going to be any different to whatever planned updates you would be making to existing older titles (ignoring fully re-worked titles like HoM & the upcoming RICH)?
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Saint stated back a few months ago they would be updating select titles later on this season with anti recon scripting
I don’t think they will be updating a crazy amount of titles with Anti recon and adaptive scripting till they are done remaking/updating all the titles pre nse
Also to your other question Emperor and Primal are still relatively new with their updates …. It’s doubtful they would be adding much if they did add anti recon and adaptive scripting to those 2 or any others that have been remade or updated since the introduction of NSE
You’re better off making a custom and running it till they decide to update anything
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Or run those “older titles” and stack them with a newer title with the new Adaptative Scripting" and “Anti-recon scripting” since it seems the results tend to affect all the titles in the stack.
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Note: If you feel your support answer had an incorrect answer, please PM me the ticket directly and I will investigate.
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Yeah, that’s been my thinking too. There’s a great feedback on the threads about how C&C has boosted the effects of other subs too
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RICH drop possible for this evening?
Deciding between EOG and RICH for sales/career purposes.
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PM sent
We’re trying to get it out as fast as possible, but life is really “lifeing” right now, lol.
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