I can't really get behind the whole "tear down and build up" growth mindset. Anyone want to share their experience?

Questions and Comments
#1

Now I’m gonna proceed this by saying, everyone has their path. If this mindset works for you that’s great. But I don’t see it as the only way. Possible I’m taking the idea of it too literally and being swayed by the sales pages. The script itself is probably more nuanced. Everyone’s got their own motivations. I guess we can go with the big one, stage 1 of Khan TB.

Battle or confrontation doesn’t interest me. And I definitely have no desire to start an internal war inside myself to eradicate what can be perceived as weakness or less desirable traits. The whole idea of a breakdown I don’t understand. What is being broken down? How can you break down something that is fundamentally a part of yourself? In my opinion there’s multifaceted aspects to something most people consider undesirable for example jealousy. Jealousy could be seen, though not universally, as a deep admiration for another individual but simultaneous experiencing the pain of not experiencing what they do in one’s own life. So that’s really an unacknowledged need that could use attention. Why are you suppressing that need and inviting jealously into your life? That’s what I’d ask. Is that considered break down and “eradicating”?

I’m just curious what you guys feel on these types of titles. How the motivation comes across, how you feel towards your emotions, habits, perceived negativity, etc. I’m at a place in my life where I don’t touch stuff like this. Just reading the description for Khan I’m like nope, there would be a ton of backlash and lack of growth because I’ve learned a lot about the complex ecosystem that is my mind and what it will tolerate. And that’s not something I can consciously will away or fight through, doesn’t work like that.

So you may say “cool just don’t run Khan then” lol. But I am genuinely curious because I only have my mind, my perspective, and my life and what works for me. I like hearing how this stuff is interpreted or used by others.

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#2

You can always do another method of healing like phoenix or elixir, I’m sure I might be missing some…

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#3

Relevant to the main points you’re making here is the focus of the New Subliminal Experience itself.

The NSE directly addresses this whole thing of ‘tear down and build up’. It replaces it.

Every successive iteration of Subliminal club programs, if you notice, has served to increase compatibility with the mind and self, and has served to decrease combativeness with the mind.

So, in a fundamental way, none of the programs are about ‘tearing down’ in quite the ways that they may have been in earlier iterations.

This point must be a little more complex when it comes to a subliminal literally called ‘Total Breakdown’.

But even though Khan 1 is ‘Total Breakdown’, this is still happening in the context of the overall Sub Club approach. So, I would say it’s probably Relentless, Unflinching, and Comprehensive; but not Violent. (Unless that’s the style that the listener’s mind prefers and imposes on the process.)

But again, it’s as you said,

It may, quite simply, be that this is not what you want right now.

Yes, there are situations in which it is needed to call on the skills of a master fighter and pugilist who has the power to physically immobilize a room of 20 people in less than 2 minutes.

A tense diplomatic negotiation between world leaders on trade and environmental issues is not one of those times.

It sounds like your growth and change process is more like that negotiation process. I think it gets a little more complicated with you because you impose a Healing frame onto many of your personal targets and goals, assuming that there is ‘something wrong with you’ and you ‘need to change’. But many of your targets may not actually be about ‘healing’ but just about strategizing, optimizing, adapting, and adjusting.

In that case, Total Breakdown would be the wrong tool for the job.

In other words, I think it’s less an issue with the Breakdown or Healing titles, and more that you may be applying the Healing label to goals and issues with too broad of a brush. Some of the things you’re saying require Healing, might not.

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#4

phoenix is not an easy title. I’d say it’s a hard one.

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#5

This is my perpetual sticking point. I’m very aware of it. It comes from a deep internal feeling I haven’t been able to shake that well for most my life. I’ve come to realize it’s not a trivial thing and I minimized the impact of it over the years. The broad healing approach is a coping mechanism. One I haven’t learned to calm down and break out of the more rigid role of it. For that I am thankful for NSE because it steers me away from that.

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#6

That’s fine - for those who desire that manner of purifying and refining their beliefs, limitations, traumas and other subconscious structures, they have Khan as an option.

It is simply the approach and way of development that you choose. Some approaches fit different people better, and we give you the choice rather than forcing you into a specific one.

Next, let’s avoid slapping subjective ideas such as “internal war” on titles. It is a very powerful, relentless approach to healing - one that is also influenced by the user’s desires, perceptions and current subconscious structures.

The way one individual experiences the Total Breakdown will be different from another. There might be some commonalities, but ultimately each experience is extremely subjective, as we all are made from many, many different experiences and ways of life. One’s experience of Total Breakdown could be exceptionally smooth, and another would be just that - Total Breakdown of their limitations, which while at the moment might seem overwhelming, would be just what that individual needs.

One might prefer judo and submit opponents through a smooth joint lock, another would prefer a fancy Taekwondo kick to the head, and yet another the pure raw power and extreme focused mastery of the basic 1-2 in boxing.

Choose the tool you resonate with most, that fits the goal the best, coincides with the approach you desire to take and gives you the best results while allowing yourself the freedom to experience the full depth of the program.

^ As in, one can experience extreme long-term results versus rapid short-term (or any kind of mix in-between) - knowing how you react to programs and what types of programs cause such responses comes with experience. An example would be no need to run a status subliminal because you already got it, or having issues with seduction subliminals due to issues during your childhood/upbringing/previous trauma, resulting in greater than usual reconciliation and more profound results later on.

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#7

I’ve contended with this too.

Some of the things that I wanted to transform really needed to transform. Others, I’ve gradually found over the years, fit into the ‘features not bugs’ category. But I just have had to learn that over time.

Would be cool if we could go into simulators and do the Role Playing Game slider thing on ourselves.

It would be like, ‘Decrease sensitivity from 80 to 15!’ ‘Wait a minute! What just happened to my aesthetic discernment, my sense of deep meaning, and my capacity for gratitude?! Hold up! Move that sensitivity back up!’

All of this being said, I have to add two points:

  1. I am not the confident group leader type. Well, I do lead groups at work, and I do have my own version of confidence; but I’m not generally jumping into rooms of peers and just taking them over or dominating.

  2. I have not run Khan, and may never do so. At least, it’s not in the cards for the near-future.

So, those are some of the limits to the points I’m making.

I like to go through the fires and find out who I am. That is an open-ended process. In other words, it doesn’t only reveal things that I don’t like, sometimes it reveals things that I do like.

Hmm…that reminds me that there is a real resonance between Khan with its Total Breakdown and Dragon Reborn with its crucible of self-discovery and transformation. Now DR I have run. And really appreciated.

Guess we need to add DR into the conversation as well.

Hm… putting it in terms of Dragon Reborn, I’d add this:

Sometimes in life, we bullshit ourselves because we’d rather tell a story about what’s there than to actually go out and touch reality and find out what’s actually there.

I think that sometimes the ‘break down’ programs help with that. They’re breaking down and rebuilding your Narratives. And they’re doing that by challenging you to face Lived Reality.

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#8

If someone doesn’t like the idea of Total Breakdown but would still love to run Khan, then run Regeneration + Sanguine: The Elixir for 2 cycles and move to Khan ST2.

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#9

I have a simple mindset regarding this issue:

  1. If I see something as a fundamental part of myself, I’ll have no chance of changing it. What we see as fundamental in ourselves, we reify(make real).
  2. If I was completely happy with my situation, I’d have no issue with these “fundamental parts” of myself. But I’m not happy with my situation.
  3. Tons of people in history have already done all the contemplative you’d need to show yourself that everything needs context to acquire meaning, and that both context and meaning are in constant flux. What seems to be permanent is the attributeless observer.
  4. If things need context to acquire meaning, I am basically telling myself narratives about everything I see. Doing this over and over again makes them stronger, until I see them as a fundamental part of myself (=I strongly identify with these narratives)
  5. I can only change my perceived reality if I challenge my most fundamental assumptions about it. But if I challenge the things I strongly identify myself with, it is like killing parts of “myself”. That naturally is painful as hell. And this is where the “internal war” part comes in that you often see mentioned in more serious spiritual traditions. Subs like Khan bring you to the same process.
  6. We subconsciously use many coping mechanism to avoid the hard inner healing process. One of the more devious ones is “I am fine the way I am. I don’t need to change”. And yet we find ourselves on forums like this one or in a support group. It is crucial for you to discern whether you are being honest with yourself or deceiving yourself to resist transformation.
  7. I’d go even further than Malkuth. The stories are changeable, so we can move beyond them. But the reality we uncover may also not be as permanent as we’d like to assume. It is bound to change once we challenge our assumptions further. This is why you can look back at any given state in your past and think “hmm, I was so narrow-minded back then even though I thought I had it all figured out”. This could continue infinitely, in which case reality would be like an onion with infinite layers.

You can probably see why I picked Khan.

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#10

This can get tricky, which may be part of why @Fractal_Explorer brought up the question in the first place.

The process can become excessive and unbalanced in either direction. As you say, a person can assert ‘I am fine the way I am. I don’t need to change’ and leave unchallenged many sources of unnecessary suffering in his beliefs, habits, and actions. In the same way, a person can determine to ‘change everything and create himself anew’ and waste a lot of time reinventing the wheel or supposedly improving things that were actually working quite well in the first place.

:+1:t6:

I think that helping a person to skillfully navigate that deep, thorough Review, Revision, and Update process is part of what a title like Total Breakdown is for. So, yes, I think you’ve made a great choice.

But again,

when we come to more nuanced questions of style of change, of degree of change, and so on, we have to recognize that Total Breakdown is just one out of many helpful approaches.

There it is.

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#11

That is true. It is tricky.
For example, if somebody is addicted to porn and masturbates 3 times a day since decades, and then his friends or parents told him “you gotta get out of this, you don’t have a healthy relationship with your sexuality and don’t know what a natural, healthy relationship with another person actually looks and feels like”, he could easily avoid all change by citing some study on how men are supposed to avoid prostrate cancer by regularly jacking off and then some other study on how men are getting the short end in the divorce process, add some crazy high divorce rate statistic to it, and boom, the guy can feel safe and natural in his life choice.
But how can he determine, on his own, that this may just be self-deception and abuse of statistics and studies to protect the ego?
If he knows nothing but that limited reality fueled with porn and instant self-gratification, how will he know that there is a wider reality out there? How will he know that he may be using porn to avoid growth and to avoid going out there and find real women? The brainfog you get on porn and the systematic weakening of your inner frame and aura that comes with it makes it unlikely that he can just move beyond it or even see the need for it(see the hikkikomori/social recluse phenonmenon in East Asia).
I’d argue that in those cases, there is a very small chance of a sudden stirring in this person’s consciousness which would scream for a widening of perception and evolution would then be just a matter of time. But if this didn’t come to be, then that person would be dependent on a strong outside observer to help him get out of it. You can adapt this porn example to anything else in your mind that is currently holding you back from experiencing something you’d like to experience.

Likewise, as you mentioned, there are individuals who have delved deep into the realm of self-improvement only to later regret it, realizing that they were attempting to mend something that was not broken. In such cases, how can one accurately discern the underlying issues, especially when they lack innate self-awareness? This dilemma, I think, underscores the importance of spiritual/self-help groups and/or mentors who can offer an external perspective to determine whether one is engaging in self-deception or genuine growth.

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#12

Yup.

Playing Emperor will not make one an actual “Emperor.”

There are no Dragon eggs getting hatched anywhere.

The scope of Beyond Limitless isn’t “beyond” Limitless.

Total Breakdown only breaks down beliefs, which technically every sub does too.

Etc.

:rofl:

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#13

If this is true than why did i start speaking mongolian and raiding the villages around me after one loop of Khan? :thinking::face_with_monocle:

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#14

Thanks for the input everyone. Gave me some much needed perspective.

@Fire I should have been more clear that the internal war reference was an entirely subjective perception of what TB represented in my mind. I sometimes forget how impressionable words are on this forum. Apologies.

@Malkuth You’re always good at calling out the extremes in my thinking. Considering it took me almost 2 years to figure out when I was overdoing it with sub exposure, I am not the best at validating what’s needed for me at times. It’s been a long process and I’m still learning what tools are right for the job. Interestingly enough you mention DR. That was the very last strictly focused healing sub I ran before it dawned on me that something wasn’t right with my approach. If these subs are tools I have no doubt in my mind I could potentially utilize them wrong. Like trying to drive a nail with the opposite side of a hammer. It’s not the sub itself, but it does become a real issue due to those more rigid filters that get activated.

@GoldenBird It’s like Malkuth stated. It can get tricky for me. I’ve never been “fine” or had the self perception that I am. Ironically this is what tends to stagnate me more than resisting changes. In fact when I was younger I suffered from some pretty bad spiritual bypassing. I confused full on dissociation from emotions as a higher level of consciousness. I was not well. I thought emotions were a barrier to happiness. In a world where some people are overly content with who they are, I’m on the opposite end. Where I almost struggle every day because I have deep aversions to what is fundamentally human and normal things.

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#15

bruh, prepare, I will avenge you for your crimes in Central Asia and Middle East

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#17

I was joking

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#18

No, you were not. You have the potential to bring greatness to Mongolia once again. I am reminding you of your commitment. If you do not conquer a sizeable chunk of the world in the coming years, I will have to conclude that you’re not taking enough action on Khan.

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#19

You are right, how could i forget my duty? After i finish to write this post i will prepare my horse and start the journey by uniting the tribes into one big entity, then, we will start expanding

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#20

Well growth happens through pain. So what you can do is run microloops so you have less pain but also grow slower

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#21

I think of it like you’re just removing the negative programming society has put on you (or “programming” from negative experiences as a child), things that LEAD to jealousy, envy, etc. all those negative things. Are you familiar with Brent Smith? His whole idea is partly that all you’re doing is removing programming, and that you’re already a natural chick magnet, but it’s ideas and limiting beliefs that society/media programs us with. I haven’t ran TB yet so can’t speak on that (really want to though).

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